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  #111  
Old 04-29-2013, 04:07 PM
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Laurelin Laurelin is offline
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Originally Posted by MandyPug View Post
Except those of us who work in the pet industry with the general pet owning public know what happens with most of those dogs who you give education to. They end up breeding because someone told them their dog is just to cute and should have puppies! And that one litter becomes two and then five and then you have a crap ton of poorly bred pug puppies everywhere with health problems.

It's a fine line between giving the information and really pushing the realities of bringing those lives into this world with their crap bred walking health problems.
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Originally Posted by SaraB View Post
I'm one for uneducated owners opting to spay/neuter is better that leaving the dogs intact.

I receive calls all the time (even one today) asking questions about why their intact female dog has bloody discharge, if they need to wear anything, should they just keep them outside during this, or they don't know that this means they can get preggers. Or how about the person who assumed that their littermate dogs (one boy, one girl) couldn't reproduce. People are stupid. Some people just need to be told that this is the best option for their situation. If they have additional questions, fine, information is great and I would love for everyone to be able to make informed decisions. But the majority of our clients just want to be told what to do, when to do it and not worry about the extra stuff.
Yep and yep

I think it is great that responsible dog people can leave their dogs intact. My family almost always had intact dogs. However I am seeing it more and more often being presented in a way that I believe is dangerous.
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  #112  
Old 04-29-2013, 04:10 PM
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I agree that 90% of the dog owning public needs their dogs altered; I think vasectomies and OSS are nice options for some people, but I also think that the majority of owners also don't need to be dealing with hormone related behaviors. Most people can't get their altered-young dogs under control.

Of course you can train around the hormones. People can and do and it is grand. Most people aren't going to put that much effort into training their dog. I enjoy training, and I still wanted to grab Gusto by the throat more than once when his hormones were kicking in.

People want to go to the dog park and stand around while their dogs play. They want to put their dog out in the yard and not worry about it while they cook dinner. They want to walk the dog off leash to the mailbox and not worry about it wandering off after the scent of a female in heat. And they don't want to work to make those things happen.

I agree that traditional spay/neuters are the ideal default for most owners. Those who are likely to research further into the other options are those who are most likely to be able to judge if they can handle those options. I don't support false information (on either side - if one more person tells me hormones don't affect behavior, I'm moving in with them for a particular 3 days of the month), but I also don't think encouraging average owners to leave their dogs intact is the answer.
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  #113  
Old 04-29-2013, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Saeleofu View Post
I'm not so sure you'd pass that test you want to give yourself

I want the hormone-makers left in place. But the boy half of the seed needs to not get to the girl and/or the girl needs to not have a place for the baby to grow.

There's a big difference between ovaries and testicles being left in but unable to reproduce, and taking full organ systems that produce important chemicals out completely.

I find it hilarious that you're agreeing with me and arguing with me because you can't comprehend what I'm saying. Also, you have an intact male.
I'm not arguing, you're the one who jumped on my responses.

I know what goes where, I just didnt understand what you were writing, I was so distracted by the tone I read it in (it appears very angry and zomg I'm having a srs meltdown). I find it hard to take in the message when the the tone is so.... Off.

And again, I think you're missing my point completely

It's not about people owning intact dogs when they are capable of looking after them and being responsible for those parts.

Read what Sara said.

I don't care HOW they alter them. That really is of no consequence.

And honestly, if people are doing the research to that advanced level, I'm pretty sure they'd be responsible with their dog.

And yes, I own an intact male, he's only 9 months old, and if I never show him again, they'll be chopped off at some point in the future too but if they weren't, then I know I'm not average joe public dog owner, for one.

They're ugly, I can't face looking at them getting older and wrinklier and more saggy.
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  #114  
Old 04-29-2013, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by BostonBanker View Post
I agree that traditional spay/neuters are the ideal default for most owners. Those who are likely to research further into the other options are those who are most likely to be able to judge if they can handle those options. I don't support false information (on either side - if one more person tells me hormones don't affect behavior, I'm moving in with them for a particular 3 days of the month), but I also don't think encouraging average owners to leave their dogs intact is the answer.
I'm just grabbing a quote from you BB, this isn't directed just at you!

I have no issues with people altering their dogs be it if they've done the research or not. What I DO have a problem with is lying to the public "for their own good" and having it rather hard if you aren't completely computer savvy or happen to have a 'good' vet to get information about spaying and neutering.

If you go and say "I want to alter my dog" and don't care about anything else to look deeper that's fine, it's probably for the best (though I still agree with Sael about alternative s/n options) . But saying that because people weren't able to find the minuscule amount of information out there about the pros and cons of altering or were told by their vet, who they trust on their dogs health, or by the million and one flyers passed out from every organization that you should ALWAYS alter a dog unless it's being bred? I find that just wrong. If they care enough to try and look or ask they should be given information. They should be EDUCATED. They should be told the options, they should be given the resources. That's what I'm trying to say.

I think the mass amount of misinformation out there about altering IS an issue. The idea that taking out the hormones does nothing but good things and only prevents terrible things is misleading and does in fact end up hurting dogs in my opinion. And maybe, just maybe if people had more information given to them about what a heat looks like and how to take care of an intact dog rather than just a "DON'T DO IT" people might just happen to become dog owners that could, quite easily own and care for an intact dog.

I find it wrong that the women that came into my store was telling me how she did a lot of research and decided to keep her large breed puppy not fixed until she was at least 18 months but was starting to worry that because her vet, the store people and most of the things online said it would be the worst thing ever. That's not right. Someone who tries to put in the effort shouldn't be getting scared away because she's worried she's going to end up hurting her dog.

I may have more faith in people than a lot of you, I don't necessarily think that's wrong or right. But I do know that the bad stories stick with us. Jo down the street breeding his mutt because she's cute is the story we remember. Mary up the block though that's never had a litter, never bred a dog but always had her dogs intact (known or unknown to us) doesn't get a blip on the radar. I know as many, if not more people that have kept intact dogs with no issue and no puppies and they aren't DOG PEOPLE. They are just people.

So I guess what I'm saying is that no, not everyone or maybe even the majority of people should or want to own an intact dog and I'm cool with that. But I do think the information should be more readily available and lying to them about the realities of altering both pro and con just sets up a self fulfilling prophesy because they remain ignorant, and not necessarily by choice.
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  #115  
Old 04-29-2013, 06:01 PM
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What I DO have a problem with is lying to the public "for their own good" and having it rather hard if you aren't completely computer savvy or happen to have a 'good' vet to get information about spaying and neutering.
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  #116  
Old 04-29-2013, 06:51 PM
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I would like to see vasectomies and ovariectomies become more popular, but they aren't right now, and also they are rather expensive.

Some people freak out just at the normal price of a spay or neuter - that's why low cost spay/neuter programs exist.

I doubt they will ever become popular with the general public.
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  #117  
Old 04-29-2013, 07:16 PM
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BTW Beanie, ovariectomies = full spay when it comes to hormones. I think you're thinking about hysterectomies, aka ovary sparing spay.

I think the alternative sterilizations might catch on more, though, and I hope they do. I know of one shelter in Canada that vasectomized a dog instead of neutering when the rescue asked - no arguments, no drama, just "sure, we'll get him on the schedule tomorrow" - and imo that is a huuuuge step.

If I do a hysterectomy with Snipe it'll be about $400 vs $200 for a regular spay, but a large part of that is that we have to go to a specialist. For reference, the specialist charges $350 for a regular spay. If regular vets could do them, I'm sure the price would drop. Heck vasectomies might even be cheaper because I bet they take less time than a full neuter...
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  #118  
Old 04-29-2013, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by stardogs View Post
BTW Beanie, ovariectomies = full spay when it comes to hormones. I think you're thinking about hysterectomies, aka ovary sparing spay.

I think the alternative sterilizations might catch on more, though, and I hope they do. I know of one shelter in Canada that vasectomized a dog instead of neutering when the rescue asked - no arguments, no drama, just "sure, we'll get him on the schedule tomorrow" - and imo that is a huuuuge step.

If I do a hysterectomy with Snipe it'll be about $400 vs $200 for a regular spay, but a large part of that is that we have to go to a specialist. For reference, the specialist charges $350 for a regular spay. If regular vets could do them, I'm sure the price would drop. Heck vasectomies might even be cheaper because I bet they take less time than a full neuter...
The vet that did Blossom's hysterectomy was exceedingly reasonable, and is a highly regarded repro vet. I was VERY lucky in that respect. A traditional spay for Blossom at my choice of vet in the city was going to cost me almost $700, excluding pre-op blood work. At Dr. Greer's, I paid $532 all said and done, including pre-op blood work and an echocardiogram, a microchip, and post-op lazer therapy (for pain)...and I only paid $69 extra dollars for the ovary-sparing spay. This is for removing the uterus down to the cervix, and is the same fee she charges for a female in heat/pregnant.

I actually saved money on my dog's hysterectomy. I was extremely fortunate to have access to this vet like I did. She's very much "pro" alternative sterilization procedures and I feel that she makes a point not to charge a prohibitive amount for them. She also told me that vasectomies are "so simple, SO SO simple!"

I only hope such an attitude catches on, that's all I can say!
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  #119  
Old 04-29-2013, 07:30 PM
Saeleofu Saeleofu is offline
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If I do a hysterectomy with Snipe it'll be about $400 vs $200 for a regular spay, but a large part of that is that we have to go to a specialist. For reference, the specialist charges $350 for a regular spay.
A regular spay at the clinic where I work is $400, maybe a little more. I haven't asked about hysterectomies, since I don't have a bitch.
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  #120  
Old 04-29-2013, 07:34 PM
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I asked the specialist about how she charges and she said the only difference is it takes just a little more of her time to do the hysterectomy than a traditional spay since she has to be more careful about removing all the uterine tissue. It uses the same tools and everything, so you just pay for the additional time the vet spends.
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