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  #21  
Old 04-15-2013, 06:29 PM
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Beanie Beanie is offline
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Well, it's not me. He has picked fights twice now when I am not even in the room. I was not fast enough tonight, he was leaving the room and I called him and he did not come back, and instead of immediately going after him I was too busy putting a headband on my head. And within the span of about five seconds he had started a fight.

He is fighting when Georgie is around and when my mom is stupid and gets between them. I told her not to get between them and to keep Georgie away and she keeps doing it. I don't know what to do when my mom is now the one who keeps setting things off and she is too dumb to realize what she is doing and stop it. I don't really want to C&R them but what else can I do?? How long is this going to go on? I posted this on Thursday, they have had a fight every day since, excepting Saturday. My mom getting in the way with Georgie has been the cause of each of those fights since I posted this. They have not had any other issues with me. Georgie is not out with them 99% of the time but in that 1% of the time she somehow manages to do exactly what I told her NOT to do and set Payton off.

Auggie is in constant "diffuse the situation" mode now. If Payton approaches him at all he turns his head and walks away. Payton wants him to play, Auggie will not play with him. This is not fair to Auggie.
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  #22  
Old 04-16-2013, 01:02 AM
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ok, this is a very much been there, done that kind of advice considering I live with jrts that can be a problem esp with same sex aggression. And my dogs are excellent compared to some jrts.

The advice of impulse control has been excellent and I would like to add to it.
What EVERYONE in the house has to start getting good at is body language and then redirecting or managing depending on the persons skill level and time.
What you look for is the glances at each other, hard eyes, stares, up on the toes, position of ears. It can't get to the point of growling, let alone a fight (even if it is just very vocal at this point).

Punishment can work, but tends to just **** them off more and doesn't solve the problem typically and doesn't change the behaviour. So I don't vote for that and I doubt that is the route you would take anyway. And you might just have to take the punishment to an extreme for it to work.

Better yet, build a positive association over a negative one. Which means, one hard glance or stare (or any of the other signs by themselves or together) and all the dogs go to work.

What I do, is placement training and have all the dogs either on chairs or mats. Some dogs are required to sit, others to down or stand. The offender must be in a down and don't ask the dog that is being picked on or worried to do a down. It is a vulnerable position and dogs that are worried are likely to be reluctant to do it or remain in it or will break. All dogs must have solid placement training before being able to do it as a group.

Once in a group placement, recall one dog to you and work with them, doesn't matter what you train, tricks, obedience etc. Dogs in placement as also being rewarded and sometimes having their positions changed from down, sit or stand. I work each dog, even for 2 minutes sometimes longer or depending on the dogs attention span. Keep it light, fun and interesting. Most of the time, once I have worked all the dogs (esp free shaping which makes them mentally tired), they are released. The offending dog is always released last. If the offending dog has still not softened their body language, it is at that time they go for a time out in their crate.

The key to this, is noticing BEFORE there is a problem and taking the time to work them as a group. Good things happen when they get along. If that can't be done at that time, crates. You also might find an activity away from home that they both really enjoy without over stimulating them. Again building that 'good things happen' attitude.

I also believe it is because Payton has reached that first big milestone of maturity and hormones. Typically hits between 2-3 yrs of age, the next one hits around 5 yrs of age.
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  #23  
Old 04-16-2013, 09:00 AM
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Recon can be added to your jerkface club.

Seriously, he hates having most other dogs around the house and only tolerates it. It's not an age, gender, or size thing, it's just overactive dogs that want to be in his face while he's trying to relax. We thought about resource guarding for a while and it's apparent that is not it. I corrected him for it a few times out of instinct (which is really hard to get over, btw!) and it got worse. Instead of growling at Bogey from across the room, he would charge him and pin him down without showing any warning signs. Not what I wanted.

We worked a lot on impulse control which made a big difference, did minor crate/rotating so that they were only out when I could click to calm and build a positive association. I stopped correcting. Recon was pretty fine with Bogey in the last week or so he was at my house. Recon accepts the puppy now just fine and will even play with him.

And, I let him correct the dogs to a certain point instead of stopping it when they got in his face, then rewarded him FOR STOPPING and coming to me. No screaming/correcting... that is what gives them more reason to hate the other dog. So now when Recon occasionally corrects the puppy, I calmly say his name, he walks away and starts to slink because he thinks he'll be corrected, but instead I call him to me and reward, and he will go back to happily play with the puppy. Since this is a behavior thing and not a cue, I have no fear that he would backchain a behavior of pinning or correcting a dog harshly then come to me as a command for food. He would be doing that by now and it's not the case...

I just have to say one more time that I will tell you what did not work and made matters worse for quite some time.... (see below)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Chrome View Post
That said, this type of behavior no matter the dog needs a correction. He needs a little "come to jesus" moment IMHO.
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  #24  
Old 04-16-2013, 09:09 AM
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To be more clear, to me a CTJM does not have to mean physical corrections, it can be a verbal correction timeout etc. To me it just means something to rock their little world.

I will say, you have to do what works best for your dogs. I have large dogs who would seriously injure each other if they wanted too. I have an intact male who is pretty dominant. I personally do what works at my house for my dogs cause I have a lot of dogs come through here in one way or another and my dogs have to tolerate them...period.
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  #25  
Old 04-16-2013, 09:19 AM
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Beanie, could Georgie be coming into heat soon? I noticed that when the Great dane was here, shortly before she left (due to her coming into heat), the boys attitudes changed, Ivan was much more on edge around Peewee. And we even caught peewee trying to mount her.
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:21 AM
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Sounds like the issues we have between Chloe and Rose. Honestly, for us, we just separated them. Due to the way the house is set up, that was easiest. Chloe is now older and a bit wiser, and Rose is much older and cancer/age has pretty much completely deteriorated her, so I don't think either one of them would fight anymore...but we still hold by the old routines because that is what they're used to.

With them, as soon as it got to the point they were squabbling over unknown triggers (and Rose started fighting back), we separated. I wish we had done it sooner, TBH.

Currently, they can be outside in the yard with each other without any issues. They could probably be left loose together in the house if they were always under direct supervision. Because, as has been stated, as soon as even a hard glare was thrown by one of them they could be put into "time out" and/or separated. Any unsupervised time means they need to be in their own section of the house.

It really sucks having dogs that don't get along all of the time, but its not the end of the world and is actually quite doable to work around, IMO, as long as the dogs aren't actively trying to seriously injure one another. Even when Rose and Chloe would squabble, it was all noise.
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Chrome View Post
To be more clear, to me a CTJM does not have to mean physical corrections, it can be a verbal correction timeout etc. To me it just means something to rock their little world.

I will say, you have to do what works best for your dogs. I have large dogs who would seriously injure each other if they wanted too. I have an intact male who is pretty dominant. I personally do what works at my house for my dogs cause I have a lot of dogs come through here in one way or another and my dogs have to tolerate them...period.
I as well do what works for my house as I also have numerous intact dogs coming and going and there is always someone different here. VERBAL corrections made the house like thin ice, so to say that a dog NEEDS to be corrected as an end all be all is silly. My dog would still be lunging and attacking the other boys if I had done that. Instead he views their interactions as positive and that was all he needed.
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  #28  
Old 04-16-2013, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJEtzel View Post
I as well do what works for my house as I also have numerous intact dogs coming and going and there is always someone different here. VERBAL corrections made the house like thin ice, so to say that a dog NEEDS to be corrected as an end all be all is silly. My dog would still be lunging and attacking the other boys if I had done that. Instead he views their interactions as positive and that was all he needed.
This is exactly what I've done with my girls too... I mean, IF they get into a tiff (it's noisy but not serious) I will break out my "daycare voice" and end it quickly with a big "HEY!" However, verbal correcting them or sending them to time outs for tense posture and other warning signals was what I (lazily, I admit, it was easier than doing training and being armed with treats) did at first. Did not help.

I proofed the hell out of both their "leave it" commands for when they both rushed at food, and built in several positive interrupters for when they start playing too rough and Keeva gets pissed (Blossom will usually get snippy back when she's aroused from playing). I use "take a break!!!" and it means run to me and sit politely for cheese whiz or peanut butter, eyes on me, no focusing on your sister and waiting politely for your turn at the food.

My situation is a little different, Beanie, as my girls have very predictable triggers. But I'm sure that with time, you will figure out what is setting Payton off and what's preempting the issue. Maybe it would be wise to C&R for a while, like a week, and then try introducing them as if they are brand new to each other? Take them for a walk, reenter the house together, etc?
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:47 AM
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Corrections would have made Pip 1000x worse I'm sure. He's an insecure, anxious dog and even verbal corrections would have only made him more insecure and anxious. I'm not a person to say "always" but I think probably corrections almost always do make it worse.

I went immediately to gate & rotate because although there was only a single incident, it was serious. Not just snark, it was a physical attack. I'm very fortunate that Squash is so stable that he didn't have any lasting mental scars towards other dogs. But anyway, the layout of my home made that easy to do, separating into two areas without anyone being completely removed or isolated from everyone else's presence (including ours). They can still interact across the gates and do so appropriately, they've never been snarky across the gates.

And in our case triggers were pretty easy to identify as well. A little resource guarding, a little "police dog," a little bratty teenager, a little insecure old man. I worked with a behaviorist immediately to come up with a plan but basically a lot of counter conditioning in the house and yard for Pip, a lot of drag line use, a lot of working in each other's presence like Ado described, a lot of happy walks/canicross together. In the yard I trust them completely at this point, I just turn my back and walk away at the first sign of tension and it always diffuses. In the house they are only loose together when I am working them or doing nothing else but supervise dogs because our home is small and space is tight. It's probably overkill on my part but since no one is ever physically isolated from the rest of us I'm perfectly happy with the arrangement for now.

Good luck. It's hard and daunting at first but it's all doable. I think you're going to have more problems with the other people in the house instead of the dogs.
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  #30  
Old 04-16-2013, 10:12 AM
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I think corrections can help if you know the trigger. In Mia's case it is often because she's wound up or tired. She gets so incredibly wound up and then takes it out on other dogs. Sometimes she needs to be told to calm the **** down. So I will put her in a sit or down stay until she does calm down.

Or maybe that's just prevention and not correction. Works for us though.
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