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  #21  
Old 03-24-2013, 02:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeleofu View Post
The collie standard doesn't say "athletic," it straight up says not fat and being fat is a fault.
Well, what is asked for in the standard is absolutely no guarantee of what will win or what will represent the breed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeleofu View Post
There are certain breed that are kept fat for the ring. But NOT all of them. I'm doing conformation with Logan in 2 weeks, and he is NOT fat by any stretch. If anything he tends to be a tad too thin.
I am not trying to say that all dogs in all breeds are kept fat, I too show my dogs and keep them incredibly trim and well muscled, but what we do and what top winning show kennels do are different.
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  #22  
Old 03-24-2013, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Pops2 View Post
What the standard says and what actually happens are not always the same thing. Most sporting, working, hound & terrier standards say something to the effect of "hard," "fit," or "lean" condition. Most however are fat, but that is because most people (show fanciers included) have no idea what a fit dog looks like.
This. Seriously, we show our APBTs in UKC at a healthy, fit weight (but not quite ADBA conditioned, don't want to give the judges a stroke, most of them are used to judging AKC Amstaffs), and we've had judges tell us that this looks underweight and unhealthy.



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  #23  
Old 03-24-2013, 06:09 AM
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lol my dog IS from a show breeder so I am hardly "hating" on them. Just saying that when it comes to what she is looking for, you may be very hard pressed to find a breeder that is breeding so blatantly out of standard.

Like if someone wants a deer headed chihuahua, you probably aren't going to find a proper show breeder that is breeding away from the standard (which calls for apple head).. just the truth. I am not one of those people that thinks anyone breeding anything except the exact standard is an awful person,that's just not what 'responsible breeder' means to me but hey that's just me.

I have of course seen plenty of totally flat faced dogs who have lots of endurance and are PERFECTLY healthy, but I totally understand wanting a dog with a bit more snout than that.
Not saying that more snout=healthier..simply that yea, you can hear the difference. Which is just a matter of anatomy, of course a dog with a totally flat face is going to snort a little lol it's not that's bad! just true!

I am PRO show breeder 100% if it's what you are looking for. I would go back to Merlin's breeder a thousand times.. but for someone looking for an aussie with barely any coat and a crazy herding drive.. yea, barking up the wrong tree. Doesn't make her a bad breeder of course just makes her the wrong breeder for that person.

Certainly not suggesting a BYB. But chances are, when looking for a dog that is totally out of standard/NOT what is winning at shows, you aren't going to find many show breeders who are breeding litters in that direction.. just seems like common sense to me.
Like going to a sports breeder for a "low key sofa dog".. it doesn't make sense.

Not saying there are ANYTHING wrong with show bred bostons. They are just aren't the type I prefer.
Show bred aussies obviously are
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  #24  
Old 03-24-2013, 07:10 AM
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I want a Frenchie like the ones Fran dogwalks. Adorable.

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  #25  
Old 03-24-2013, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeleofu View Post
That is not true for ALL breeds. The collie breed standard actually specifically states that the dogs should NOT be fat. There are plenty, PLENTY of other breeds I've seen in the ring that are also not even close to fat.
Well it also says in the pug standard they should have the hardness of developed muscle...

Put your hands on most of them though? Some might be hard, but its that hard fat with barely any muscle tone because the dogs don't do anything to build muscle. Most of them can't at the state they're in and their owners don't want to bother either.
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  #26  
Old 03-24-2013, 08:14 AM
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Whether it is an indictment of show breeders or not, if I were to look at the two photos Fran posted, I know which one I'd take. Standard or not, able to run or not, I know that dogs are supposed to have a muzzle. I would not choose to get one that didn't, even if that particular dog functioned decently without it, because I can't believe that *every* dog bred in the quest to get that look has remained 100% functional.
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  #27  
Old 03-24-2013, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OwnedByBCs View Post
Well, what is asked for in the standard is absolutely no guarantee of what will win or what will represent the breed.
Yep. The Amstaff breed standard says about the ears "cropped or uncropped, uncropped preferred" Ask some Amstaff breed people if they intend to show an uncropped dog, and if so, whether they expect to do much winning with it.

Judges and most exhibitors really have no idea what "fat" looks like. They think if it doesn't jiggle, it's in fine, lean condition.

I know plenty of brachycephalic dogs that compete in agility, so I wouldn't say that flat faced dogs are incapable of being athletic. They do sometimes need help cooling. So does Pirate, and he has a snout.

As far as Pekes go, though, I do think you'd have to go to a BYB or a mix, I just don't see any way that a breed that has been deliberately bred for centuries to be not athletic or active is going to be likely to have those traits. Or, get a Tibetan Spaniel.
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  #28  
Old 03-24-2013, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyinsbt View Post
As far as Pekes go, though, I do think you'd have to go to a BYB or a mix, I just don't see any way that a breed that has been deliberately bred for centuries to be not athletic or active is going to be likely to have those traits. Or, get a Tibetan Spaniel.
I agree with "get a Tibetan Spaniel" if you want something that looks similar to a Peke, and appears "more" athletic (though longer muzzle does not magically equal athletic, Tibetan Spaniels still have structural qualities that make them unsuited to most activities). For the sake of education, this is what a Peke looks like under all of the hair...



I guess my question when people start tossing the word "functional" around is going to be, "functional for what exactly?"

According to the definition for "function" -- the action for which a person or thing is specially fitted or used or for which a thing exists -- modern Pekingese are just as "functional" as Pekingese hundreds of years ago and beyond, regardless of their previous structure or how it has changed over time, because they were intended and are still used as a lap companion. Of course, going by the same definition, English Bulldogs are also "functional" because even though they weren't created for the purpose of being strictly a companion breed, that IS what they are specifically fitted and used for now.

If you're really looking for the word "athletic" rather than "functional," a lot of brachy breeds are more than capable of being generally "athletic." It boils down to basically the same question... What is it that you're wanting to do with the dog?
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  #29  
Old 03-24-2013, 12:58 PM
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That's sort of my point about the peke, though--I want another Venus, whether or not she was what a peke should be. I liked her 'I do what I want thanks' attitude, her spunk, her joy at the world, her aloofness, her weird quirks, her size, her snuggle-ability, her intelligence... all that stuff, but when I went looking at show bred pekes, while they shared a lot of her personality quirks, they aren't as suited to our lifestyle/location as she was... probably because I don't really want a pekingese, if that makes sense? I want another Venus.
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  #30  
Old 03-24-2013, 03:34 PM
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*I* want a dog with some muzzle, maybe 1" to 1.5", with better structure than a show Frenchie. And maybe a tail. a real tail, ffs.
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