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  #891  
Old 03-22-2013, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Beanie View Post
We also need to teach a restrain... I was thinking the easiest way to do this would be with his harness, but how many times am I going to actually have Payton in his harness? He only wears it when we go hiking, never for agility, and he will certainly never be wearing it in the ring. So maybe I should just try shoving on his chest instead. I'm worried he's going to be like "WTF are you pushing me for?" and just let himself be pushed back rather than responding with his oppositional reflex. This might be interesting.
I've been teaching a restrain specifically and separately to in the Flyball class. What I did with dogs who aren't real naturals at it is have them on lead, set down some food, move them back from it saying "reeeeady?? Reeaddy?..." as they pull at all into the leash towards it. Then release them with "Get it" or whatever as they are pulling against the pressure. At first they are right out of reach of the food (or toy if that's what they like) then we move them further and further back. As they get better we move onto holding collars, harnesses and chest retrains. We've gotten some dogs really into it this way, dogs who were weird about being touched and had no natural desire to pull towards something.

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Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
Mia's actually really fast out of a stay however the demotivation happens when I have to correct her too many times a training session and put her back in the stay. She recovers fine once we get going but I can see her stressing so I don't push it too much. I do want to keep good criteria so I've been cracking down on the creeper dog deal she likes to do.
You don't really need a start line stay. It's not a requirement to run in agility. Sometimes I think people get so hung up on having it that it creates a bunch of other issues for them, like what you're seeing with the stress. Certainly hasn't hurt this dog to have never been able to hold a start line stay



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Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
Luckily almost everyone I've met has been very happy with their pyrsheps. Quite a few are planning on another. Different strokes, I suppose.
Yep! Someone who told me when Savvy was a puppy that I was going to have a "hell of a time trialing him" and implied I should have done more research and talked to more people (who didn't own the breed or had one they weren't pleased with I suppose) is struggling to get her young dog to do more than one or two obstacles at trials while Savvy is having a great time playing at trials like a good young boy should. I heard it all when I got him but I'm always thinking how happy I am I decided not to listen to the naysayers. PyrSheps aren't for everyone or even most people but that doesn't mean they aren't for anyone. I often think how poorly suited more people at my training club would be to having one. Not that they are bad or haven't done well with their dogs, they just wouldn't compliment the breed. But I do know some people who would do well with them and really enjoy them.

TBH it wasn't really that complicated for me. I found I just enjoyed them and didn't find another breed I felt such a draw to. If I was going to not have a breed because of the potential for weirdness, I'd probably not have a house full of Belgians. I meet a lot of PyrSheps over the years. Some of my favorites happened to be some of Savvy's relatives. I picked a puppy who had everything I was looking for, who's breeder felt he was perfect for me and well...he was the only puppy I looked at LOL. Trained him, socialized him, had fun with him and didn't sweat the small stuff. People can say what they will but it's just sorta...whatever to me at this point. Why in the world should I have taken advice about a breed from someone who was unsuccessful with their dog anyway?
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  #892  
Old 03-22-2013, 08:50 PM
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You need to clone me a Savvy. Speaking of, we haven't seen pictures of the ScruffMutt in a while.

Quote:
e you pushing me for?" and just let himself be pushed back rather than responding with his oppositional reflex. This might be interesting.
I've been teaching a restrain specifically and separately to in the Flyball class. What I did with dogs who aren't real naturals at it is have them on lead, set down some food, move them back from it saying "reeeeady?? Reeaddy?..." as they pull at all into the leash towards it. Then release them with "Get it" or whatever as they are pulling against the pressure. At first they are right out of reach of the food (or toy if that's what they like) then we move them further and further back. As they get better we move onto holding collars, harnesses and chest retrains. We've gotten some dogs really into it this way, dogs who were weird about being touched and had no natural desire to pull towards something.
We did that with Summer pretty much. She is very weird about being pushed on. Very soft that way and worries about people acting weird. But she took right to that and pulls like a champ now for her restrained recall. Well... as good as a dog her size can pull.

Agility has gotten a lot more fun and Mia is running MUCH nice now that I'm not pushing the start line so much. My trainer says especially with the small dogs, you see people do a running start more often. Summer holds stays like a champ. But she's the good dog of the family.
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  #893  
Old 03-22-2013, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Aleron View Post
You don't really need a start line stay. It's not a requirement to run in agility. Sometimes I think people get so hung up on having it that it creates a bunch of other issues for them, like what you're seeing with the stress. Certainly hasn't hurt this dog to have never been able to hold a start line stay

Yes, I think people sometimes get hung up on having a start line stay, to the detriment of their performance. That's where I was at with the girls... with Tully, I was so proud of her super stay, but eventually I realized that it was not what was best for her motivation. With Tess, we just fought over the stay. (which wasn't her fault. I was inconsistent, and you can not be inconsistent with a Stafford.) And the stress from that leaked into other areas of her performance.

At some point you have to say "well hey, I'm supposed to be the big brain here, can't I think of another way to get this done?"

That said, I'm pretty committed to having a stay with Pirate, because he is faster than Tess, and I'm still pretty slow. But I'm being a lot more thoughtful on keeping it.
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  #894  
Old 03-22-2013, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyinsbt View Post
At some point you have to say "well hey, I'm supposed to be the big brain here, can't I think of another way to get this done?"
I think this is the best thing I've ever heard in regards to dog training. Not even just start line stays or agility, but dog training in general.
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  #895  
Old 03-22-2013, 10:24 PM
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I genuinely don't know what I would do with a dog as big and fast as Backup without a stay. I'm not very fast an I'm very clumsy. He needs a lot of management and not being out ahead of him seems daunting. However, time will tell.
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  #896  
Old 03-22-2013, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
I genuinely don't know what I would do with a dog as big and fast as Backup without a stay. I'm not very fast an I'm very clumsy. He needs a lot of management and not being out ahead of him seems daunting. However, time will tell.
You're not the only one - I can think of at least two people on this board who have said before they wouldn't be able to manage their dogs without a start line stay! It's definitely handy to have at times.
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  #897  
Old 03-22-2013, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Beanie View Post
You're not the only one - I can think of at least two people on this board who have said before they wouldn't be able to manage their dogs without a start line stay! It's definitely handy to have at times.
I don't think anyone said it wasn't handy, it's it's not requirement to compete. I think most people would agree it's great to teach your young dog during foundation training. However, sometimes when you're dealing with older dogs with strongly ingrained behavior patterns that are causing start line issues (and stressing the dog out) you have to pick your battles. I'd say most people could probably handle their dogs without a start line stay with practice. I mean you have to be able to be in position and handle your dog out of motion during the rest of your run anyway
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  #898  
Old 03-22-2013, 10:49 PM
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Boomerang starts are a nice substitute to a start line stay for wiggly and or easily demotivated dogs...
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  #899  
Old 03-22-2013, 10:58 PM
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Be really careful with that - I had a friend get whistled out of the ring when she went to rev her dog up by grabbing at his scruff. The judge considered it a correction, despite her clearly playful attitude (and the dog's lack of worry about it).
As if! That's a good point to consider though.

Tonight my friends wanted to run one of the few sequences from Silvia's Foundation course that asks for a start line stay. I jumped Pan at 20" and she didn't knock the first bar once! I swear, dogs love to prove us wrong. I also think that doing a lot of wraps, pushes, and tight crazy sequences have improved her jumping immensely.
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Aleron View Post
I don't think anyone said it wasn't handy, it's it's not requirement to compete. I think most people would agree it's great to teach your young dog during foundation training. However, sometimes when you're dealing with older dogs with strongly ingrained behavior patterns that are causing start line issues (and stressing the dog out) you have to pick your battles. I'd say most people could probably handle their dogs without a start line stay with practice. I mean you have to be able to be in position and handle your dog out of motion during the rest of your run anyway
I quit using them with Auggie so nobody has to convince me they aren't a requirement to compete.
But I think some of the attitudes are at best dismissive to people who feel having a start line stay is a lifeline.
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