Not very food motivated

[adojrts]

I have a few questions, if ya don't mind

-In training class, how is the class run?
-All dogs/pups out and working at the same time?
-How much down (not the position down but on their own time and not working) time in the class per dog?
-Where are they when not working?
-Where is your dog/pup when the instructor is speaking and the owners have to focus on the instructor?


When training at home:

How long are the sessions?
What do you work on in one session?
Any play during the session?
When the dog becomes distracted, not interested/bored/stress etc what does he do?
What do you do?
Where is your other dog during training sessions?

[LostAndConfused]

Originally Posted by PWCorgi

Yup, if the cat walks by (since he seems to like tormenting the cat ) ask him for something and if he does it, he gets to go bother the cat! Make sure he's on leash though so he can't just go bother the cat without doing what you asked.

I don't really know much about premack thing you guys are talking about. I'll have to look it up tonight or over the weekend.

Originally Posted by adojrts

I have a few questions, if ya don't mind

Don't mind at all!

-In training class, how is the class run? - Not entirely sure what you mean by this. There is an instructor and 2 or so helpers. The instructor demonstrates what we will be doing with her dog (eg. sit) and then the instructor & helpers go around the room and help the people who are struggling.
-All dogs/pups out and working at the same time? Yes, we are in a medium sized room in a circle. Dogs are out and, in theory, focusing on their owners. They are all doing the exercises at the same time.
-How much down (not the position down but on their own time and not working) time in the class per dog? I think this one is a hard one to answer because it depends on what we are working on and if anyone is having issues. Example, when we first started 'down' a few dogs had issues with it, so it took a bit of time for the instructors to demonstrate luring the dog under someone's leg to have them lay down.
-Where are they when not working? in theory, we are all doing the exercises together so there isn't a time when we are not working.
-Where is your dog/pup when the instructor is speaking and the owners have to focus on the instructor? Normally? barking at the other dogs. I know that some of this could be a symptom of not enough exercise, but I also know that if I play with him too hard before class, about half way through he gets tired and quits on me.


When training at home:

How long are the sessions? Short. Very short because I can't hold his attention very long
What do you work on in one session? whatever. Down, stay, settle on your blanket,
Any play during the session? no, not really. I try to be up beat and happy, but no real play. Definitely not something I thought of early and will definitely work on adding it to our sessions
When the dog becomes distracted, not interested/bored/stress etc what does he do? He finds his favorite toy, the cat. Or he'll just wander off
What do you do?I try to bring him back a few times, and it'll work for a minute or two, and then he'll wander off again.
Where is your other dog during training sessions? No other dog. just him

[PWCorgi]

Originally Posted by LostAndConfused

I don't really know much about premack thing you guys are talking about. I'll have to look it up tonight or over the weekend.

Please do! It's seriously like miracle work It's the only way I was able to teach Frodo a recall. I worked with him for 6 1/2 years and he wouldn't even flick an ear when I called his name. Started Premacking, and after about a month he would recall off just about anything, turning on a dime. It's the awesome.

I'm sure there are some great videos on YouTube, and if you have any more questions about it, please ask!

[PWCorgi]

Also, read this. It's the first time I heard of the Premack Principle, and I love it because it makes sense!

http://lessonsfromlayla.wordpress.co...dead-raccoons/

[adojrts]

Training class: First I wouldn't train anyplace that expected me and my dogs to work for an entire hour in a group class. ESPECIALLY if I was having focus issues, that alone is setting up you and your dog to fail. Take a crate with you, reward quiet but don't expect him to do anything else. Instructor is demo'ing? your dog in a crate. Instructor talking.........dog in crate. Then you bring him out, do a 10 second micro session, of play, get 1 behaviour (i.e eye contact, hand target, sit (if you can get it without luring) play and then send back into crate. You need to raise the time limits slowly, make training sessions, less than 30 seconds long at first, make them exciting and fun. It would also be a good idea to get the dvd Crate Games, so he isn't stressed by going in and out of crate. The crate is just used for him to relax/break and not be on your time. Do this for training sessions only, crating when you are gone is different.
You can be ping ponging him in and out of the crate, 30 second out to work, back in for a couple of minutes or so. You can also reward focus on you when he is in the crate. Leave his leash on, easy to pick up and control him. Would be best if he knew, not to come out of his crate unless given permission too, then you can leave the door open with the leash on. (crate games dvd.

Have him on leash, so he CAN'T leave. But you have to keep the session short, training sessions should be a max of 3 mins long (if that long). You'll get more out of him with a dozen 10 second sessions with breaks in between than any session that is minutes long where he gets bored and leaves. Also be clear when the session is over, give him permission to 'go play' or 'done'. That means he is on his time and not yours. Take up ALL toys except for chewies and bones. All play and fun comes from you and only you.

You said that the owners are suppose to be getting focus from their dogs? How? Is the dog expected to stare at the handler for a hour?

In home, look for opportunities to train, all meals should be earned. So have his meals in your pocket or in containers around the house up high. He makes eye contact with you, 'Yes!' produce a kibble toss at him and go back to what you were doing. See him sitting? YES! toss him a kibble. Walking towards you? Yes!!!!, recall word, toss the kibble, run away. Want to see how fast he starts paying attention to you, do all that. The timing of the Yes, is more important than how fast they get the reward, so a delay of a few seconds while you get a reward is no big deal.

Forget about duration work at this stage, there is no way when he can't focus on you to get it for any length of time.

[release the hounds]

premack, it's the same as any other "dog training" you pair a reward with a behavior, except instead of food which may or may not be rewarding to the dog, or a tug, (the most commonly thought of "rewards" you use a behavior that the dog really likes to do.

It's like everything else with a neat name. I really want that food, ok, heel next to me, then release for food in hand. I really want to bite that guy in the suit, ok, heel, down, sit in motion, recall etc, OK, release to go bite the guy. I really wanna chase squirrels, come here, sit, look at me, OK, you can go chase squirrels. by doing the behavior you want, they earn the right to do what they want to do and that is their reward.

Dogs really decide what is rewarding to them. Sometimes it's food, sometimes it chasing, sometimes it's biting, sometimes it's jumping up in your face, sometimes it's swimming, sometimes its rolling in poop. Behavior, reward, pair it and put it on que.

[LostAndConfused]

Originally Posted by PWCorgi

Also, read this. It's the first time I heard of the Premack Principle, and I love it because it makes sense!

http://lessonsfromlayla.wordpress.co...dead-raccoons/

Thanks. I haven't looked at it yet, but will definitely bookmark once I am on my computer instead of my work machine.

Originally Posted by adojrts

Training class: First I wouldn't train anyplace that expected me and my dogs to work for an entire hour in a group class. ESPECIALLY if I was having focus issues, that alone is setting up you and your dog to fail. Take a crate with you, reward quiet but don't expect him to do anything else. Instructor is demo'ing? your dog in a crate. Instructor talking.........dog in crate. Then you bring him out, do a 10 second micro session, of play, get 1 behaviour (i.e eye contact, hand target, sit (if you can get it without luring) play and then send back into crate. You need to raise the time limits slowly, make training sessions, less than 30 seconds long at first, make them exciting and fun. It would also be a good idea to get the dvd Crate Games, so he isn't stressed by going in and out of crate. The crate is just used for him to relax/break and not be on your time. Do this for training sessions only, crating when you are gone is different.
You can be ping ponging him in and out of the crate, 30 second out to work, back in for a couple of minutes or so. You can also reward focus on you when he is in the crate. Leave his leash on, easy to pick up and control him. Would be best if he knew, not to come out of his crate unless given permission too, then you can leave the door open with the leash on. (crate games dvd.

Have him on leash, so he CAN'T leave. But you have to keep the session short, training sessions should be a max of 3 mins long (if that long). You'll get more out of him with a dozen 10 second sessions with breaks in between than any session that is minutes long where he gets bored and leaves. Also be clear when the session is over, give him permission to 'go play' or 'done'. That means he is on his time and not yours. Take up ALL toys except for chewies and bones. All play and fun comes from you and only you.

You said that the owners are suppose to be getting focus from their dogs? How? Is the dog expected to stare at the handler for a hour?

In home, look for opportunities to train, all meals should be earned. So have his meals in your pocket or in containers around the house up high. He makes eye contact with you, 'Yes!' produce a kibble toss at him and go back to what you were doing. See him sitting? YES! toss him a kibble. Walking towards you? Yes!!!!, recall word, toss the kibble, run away. Want to see how fast he starts paying attention to you, do all that. The timing of the Yes, is more important than how fast they get the reward, so a delay of a few seconds while you get a reward is no big deal.

Forget about duration work at this stage, there is no way when he can't focus on you to get it for any length of time.

Thanks. We are currently taking a break from training classes because they were just too much of a battle. When I'm ready to try again there are a few other places in the area that I would like to try. I picked these guys because they are close & their puppy kindergarten class worked out well with us.

Until then, you've definitely given me lots to work on. But, the problem with using kibble for rewards is that he doesn't....like kibble. Like, if I try to use it as a reward for something he will push my hand away with his nose.

[adojrts]

What does he eat? use it, no meals in bowls, make him earn it and if he turns his nose up at it, missing a meal tends to fix that.

[LostAndConfused]

Usually Fromm's Large Breed Puppy, but I don't understand how forcing him to work for food will make him food motivated and not resent training sessions.

[Kimbers]

You're right, you definitely don't want to "force" him to work. But if he doesn't get a meal, he should be hungry. I'd almost carry his food around in a treat bag and when he starts bugging you for it, have him do something simple like sit or a hand touch, then praise praise praise as you reward him with the food. I don't know if this has been said yet (not sure if I've read all of the comments or not) but start in a distraction-free environment and then work your way up to bigger and bigger distractions.