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  #11  
Old 02-18-2013, 08:52 AM
stardogs stardogs is offline
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I'm working on this with Kes right now. So far, I'm having a LOT of success with running away from him after the pick up - he has to basically chase me with the dumbbell in his mouth. This seems to be building nice speed on the return *and* a more solid hold.

When I stop, he's basically shoving the 'bell at me with a nice calm hold, so I'm gradually adding in a little duration before I even touch the 'bell. Sometimes I add a little tugging into the process as well, to take advantage of opposition reflex. Clean fronts will come later.
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
lol "look what I invented!!" Sigh..
"Look at me! Look at what I was doing before it had a cool name!"
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Old 02-18-2013, 10:33 AM
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Thanks for all of the ideas! I'm going to try a few tonight. By going straight to the retrieve I was hoping to build his drive a little more in it, handing it to him to "take" or "hold" results in a spit out right away. Every single time. But if he picks it up himself, he holds it longer. And if he goes away to get it, he holds it while he comes back.

But obviously that's not working. XD So I'll let you know how it goes tonight (or maybe tomorrow.. we have family visiting tonight).
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Old 02-18-2013, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by release the hounds View Post
reverse luring? they'll put a name on anything these days I guess Looks more like a form of "distraction" training that's been done forever
It's not the concept that's new, but the name gives you a way to talk about the same topic with other people.

I wasn't advertising that it's new, and neither is my friend who created the video. *shrug* It's just a great concept that gets overlooked by a lot of people.
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Last edited by SpringerLover; 02-18-2013 at 11:01 AM.
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  #15  
Old 02-18-2013, 11:06 AM
release the hounds release the hounds is offline
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there are a lot of ways to do it, i think i've used most of them at one point If he's spitting it out right away you can use your hands to block his muzzle closed around it, some just fight harder, some get the idea rather quickly. You'll have to play it out.

for a dog that doesn't want to hold it, i use the food bowl and a pvc or wooden dowel. I feed raw, but for this time period I'll cut up some natural balance since that's what we use for tracking and put it in their bowl.

They think it's feeding time and I set it on the counter and have them sit in front of me. If I have to place the dowel in their mouth, when their teeth touch it, i mark and reward with a piece or two. We'll do this over and over and they pretty quickly get the idea that mouth on the pvc or wood gets food. When they offer the behavior willingly I mark and give them the whole bowl and quit.

Next day same thing, rather quickly, usually just a session or two and they're grabbing the dowel as soon as I pull it out without any direction. Then I start to ask for more. They have to take it and hold it. Usually I have to hold my hand over their muzzle for a brief second to give them the idea. They don't have to hold for a long period, but more than just a touch and release. When we've used about half the food doing these reps over and over, on a good one, i'll mark again and put the whole bowl down.

at some point depending on the dog, after they have a decent idea of what i'm asking for, if they continuously drop it, refuse to take it, refuse to hold, I put them in a crate, put the bowl down outside the crate so they see it and leave for at least 20 minutes then come back and try again. This is usually a week or two in.

Whether they're dropping it out of anticipation for reward or because they dislike holding it, it clears up really quickly when they realize they get nothing. and their opportunity to get their reward is limited, they tend not to want to waste those chances

they have to have somewhat of an understanding of what you want though, but if they'll "take it" I think that's an idea enough. At that point they'll accept the dumbell, i think it works very well.

Other points for the "hold", i don't use it as an opportunity to build drive, do that with a toy. It's low key, clear emotions from me for good and improper behavior, but not over the top, especially at first. Once the dog has a good understanding, my good and "NO" get more animated, but not excessively.

I don't ever mark if there's any chewing once I start building duration in the hold. There is always a pressure on the DB or dowel from me pulling so they have to put pressure down to "hold it" when I mark. That can be done by hands or putting strings in the end of the dowel and pulling those. Hold it, means clamp and hold, not just sit in the mouth.

When I get a nice hold then we walk around with it, chewing gets a verbal, ah and they have to hold longer, if they drop it, there aren't many chances at this point. Everything gets picked up and they go away, no chances for at least a half hour. By the same token, when they walk around with it and change some positions and keep holding it, I don't make them do it 20 times, they get rewarded with the food bowl when they've done what I've asked. So either it's getting picked up, or it's getting put down at this point, all your repetitions should have taken place long ago

once i have that, it progresses much like that video, they come to front and take it, the push me back with it in a hold. Then it's placed between me and the dog and they have to take it and bring and build distance, then we'll move to actually throwing, and retrieving and even that has some steps so the dog gets it and turns to immediately come back without taking wide circles like some do
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  #16  
Old 02-18-2013, 11:12 AM
release the hounds release the hounds is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerLover View Post
It's not the concept that's new, but the name gives you a way to talk about the same topic with other people.

I wasn't advertising that it's new, and neither is my friend who created the video. *shrug* It's just a great concept that gets overlooked by a lot of people.
I don't think "reverse luring" is a concept for teaching a hold. I think somebody made it up to sound smart maybe for teaching "leave it", they have to physically avoid the reward in order to get it, but a hold isn't avoiding anything. It's actively taking an object they most likely don't want to hold and holding it. They get rewarded for taking an object in their mouth.

If she actually used it to teach the dog to avoid her hand and move it's head in certain directions and that's how she got the head on the chair, maybe. as it's shown in the video, it looks like nothing more than what people have been calling "proofing" forever.
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Old 02-18-2013, 11:24 AM
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If he's teething, that could be part of the problem. Ouch!

What I've started with is a plain paint roller. Soft and nice and big. I work just sitting on the floor and put it in, hold it, take it out, good puppy, treat, back in, and so on. If they don't want to hold it, then I can use my hands and their collar to gently keep it in there, and reward them when they settle into gripping it vs. fighting to spit it out (which it won't do because I'm holding it there). Once they learn that 'hold' means keep it in and you're wonderful then I start moving the roller a bit with pressure to see if they'll hold it still and make it a game, - HA, I got the roller away. Always always with an 'out' cue when I take it so they get that 'hold' means don't drop it till you hear 'out' even if I'm pulling on it a bit.
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  #18  
Old 02-18-2013, 11:26 AM
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I use the Force Fetch program that hunting retriever owners use. Works great and there really isn't a lot of force.
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  #19  
Old 02-18-2013, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by release the hounds View Post
I don't think "reverse luring" is a concept for teaching a hold. I think somebody made it up to sound smart maybe for teaching "leave it", they have to physically avoid the reward in order to get it, but a hold isn't avoiding anything. It's actively taking an object they most likely don't want to hold and holding it. They get rewarded for taking an object in their mouth.

If she actually used it to teach the dog to avoid her hand and move it's head in certain directions and that's how she got the head on the chair, maybe. as it's shown in the video, it looks like nothing more than what people have been calling "proofing" forever.
It is more specific than proofing, you are rewarding the dog for actively moving away from/avoiding something. In essence, it gives the dog something else to think about while the dumbell is in the mouth.

I've chosen to teach a chin target first then use that to teach the "hold until I ask you to release" because if the dog's chin is solidly in my palm, there is no way the dumbell is going anywhere. I can then build from there.
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  #20  
Old 02-18-2013, 11:34 AM
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AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by release the hounds View Post
I don't think "reverse luring" is a concept for teaching a hold. I think somebody made it up to sound smart maybe for teaching "leave it", they have to physically avoid the reward in order to get it, but a hold isn't avoiding anything. It's actively taking an object they most likely don't want to hold and holding it. They get rewarded for taking an object in their mouth.

If she actually used it to teach the dog to avoid her hand and move it's head in certain directions and that's how she got the head on the chair, maybe. as it's shown in the video, it looks like nothing more than what people have been calling "proofing" forever.
Well now I have to go back and actually watch the video, skimming the article it sounded like a great suggestion, teach me to skim.

Kilter is correct, I keep forgetting this is a puppy, you're putting a ton of expectations and potentially stress on a baby. Patience.

I placed the dumbbell in Sloans mouth, I held it shut, she spit, I repeated until she gave and held. Once I saw a hold we rewarded well and quit. We repeated a few times and then moved to short throws. She's a quick learner with a natural retrieve, she likes to throw things at you though for a faster fetch but waiting her out seemed to click. Backup is naturally possessive and will pick up anything. Training him to give was the hard part. Arnold needed to be clicker trained to even look at let alone touch and bring a ball. I followed what RTHs is saying with the food dish for Arnold and it worked well, I never needed a formal front and hold but we needed a reliable hold amongst distraction because of flyball.
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