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Old 02-17-2013, 08:37 PM
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DJEtzel DJEtzel is offline
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Default Training a longer hold?

So I'm working with Recon on obedience stuff... never shown before, don't know anyone that has. Trying this all on my own.

Heel stuff is coming along great. Now I'm trying to refine the retrieve. Only problem is, I can't get him to keep the damned dumbbell in his mouth longer than a few seconds on retrieval. I'm not sure what I'm missing or lacking. Everything has been shaped so far... picking it up, waiting and going to get it, etc. And he'll retrieve from about 10 ft if he's not too distracted now, but he won't EFFING HOLD IT.

GRR. I thought it was going so well and then he threw this at me.

So any ideas? I'm using a clicker, fyi. I've tried clicking for longer holds obviously, but they really don't exist anymore. He does it for the same length of time each and every time, I can't differentiate between them.
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Old 02-17-2013, 10:01 PM
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I had this same problem with Enzo. She doesn't have any retrieval instinct (shocking for a lab I know, but I don't know if it was squashed when she was a puppy or if she just didn't have any. I got her at 9 months old) and I ended up giving up lol, so I'll be interested to see the answers. My other dogs naturally don't want to give the toy/item up, so they'll hold it as long as I let them.

You may try building drive for the item, as that seems to be the largest difference in my dogs. The ones who will hold the best have waaay more drive than Enzo does, so they naturally want to keep the item. Enzo will hold things she WANTS, but things she doesn't have a natural interest in, she won't, and it's super hard for me to build her drive to play/tug with items, so I'll take what she'll give me. The others I can get to be interested in ANYTHING, and therein lies the difference, at least for me.
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Old 02-17-2013, 10:10 PM
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Reverse luring is AWESOME for something like this!

http://laurawaudby.blogspot.com/2013...se-luring.html
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Old 02-17-2013, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerLover View Post
Reverse luring is AWESOME for something like this!

http://laurawaudby.blogspot.com/2013...se-luring.html
Great suggestion.
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Old 02-17-2013, 10:22 PM
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The thing that worked for me was NOT letting her retrieve it at first. I originally did it the way you did (we had never and still haven't been in any type of formal obedience class), and Kimma would bring it back and drop it in my hand or at my feet immediately upon returning to me. So I started over. Shaped the hold until she was at the point where I waited a long while for my marker word, then TOOK IT FROM HER, then gave the treat. The retrieve/come front/sit came long after.

I also never do this when she's not amped up (sort of goes along with CharlieDog said), but it's not really getting her amped up for getting to retrieve/hold/whatever, it's getting her amped to play a game and essentially perform a trick.
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Old 02-18-2013, 06:41 AM
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i teach the hold before doing anything else. Retrieving stuff is done with a tug over jumps and flats and when the hold is solid (they can heel next to me and back to front, etc without dropping it) then the DB is introduced in the exercise. Of course I back way up, they're learning a decent front with the DB before going out, retrieving, jumping retrieve, return etc.

The toy is informal, fun, play when they return or drop during return when I mark for another toy or play. When the DB is introduced, it's more formal, but not always. If a DB is dropped or toy before I say or mark a behavior, play time is done and I pick up the object and we go inside. Party time is over.

This foundation is laid when I teach the hold. Hold till I release, you get food from your bowl. Drop it before I say release, you go in a crate and stare at your bowl full of food while I go away and you don't eat Horribly mean I know, but I do come back in about 20 minutes and give them another chance. It's amazing how quickly it works.
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Old 02-18-2013, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerLover View Post
Reverse luring is AWESOME for something like this!

http://laurawaudby.blogspot.com/2013...se-luring.html
reverse luring? they'll put a name on anything these days I guess Looks more like a form of "distraction" training that's been done forever
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Old 02-18-2013, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by release the hounds View Post
reverse luring? they'll put a name on anything these days I guess Looks more like a form of "distraction" training that's been done forever
Gotta put a shiny new label on it so you can sell it
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Old 02-18-2013, 07:41 AM
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I train in IPO, so I'm not sure how different our retrieve is, but I figured I'd give my input.

I backchained the hold and retrieve and didn't work the retrieve until I had it. I started with a dowel and had intentions of shaping the hold, but ended up having so apply a little pressure (aka me opening Aiden's mouth and holding it on the dowel). He eventually went from holding it with one hand on top/bottom of his muzzle to holding it with one hand on bottom, then to holding without any hands. Then I taught him to take it and hold it in a close front. Then he learned movement while holding, where I placed him in a sit across from me and called him to a front while holding. We worked on that a lot and did a lot and it helped to keep his hold longer to pet him calmly on the head, place my hands along side the dowel without asking for an out, and repeating it. Then I would move on to placing the dowel raised on a platform in between the dog in a sit/stay and me across the room. I would ask bring and he would run forward pick it up, and come to front. It took me six months or so before I even attempted a full blown retrieve with a dumbbell, and then it all fell apart when we started training outside once the winter was over.

I trained the whole thing with food at first, because I wanted the hold to be calm and wanted him to learn to wait for the out command before dropping it. Using a toy or tug amped him up to much and caused to much chewing the dumbbell and not a clean enough retrieve. Now that he knows the exercise 100%, I hold back his collar, throw the dumbbell, and get him really amped up before I send him. I only do this to increase speed in a relatively large and slow dog. He gets the tug when he finishes. Sometimes at the front position and sometimes in the finish position, so that he doesn't learn to anticipate the out and the tug in front.

I don't have any videos of Aiden, but I do have other videos that I like on youtube that demonstrate how I like to train it (except the trainer/dog in the video are much better than Aiden and I).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfW22...7TPb9BZlXMTLcQ
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Old 02-18-2013, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by release the hounds View Post
reverse luring? they'll put a name on anything these days I guess Looks more like a form of "distraction" training that's been done forever
lol "look what I invented!!" Sigh..
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