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  #71  
Old 01-25-2013, 09:25 PM
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Linds Linds is offline
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Originally Posted by Lyzelle View Post
Amylase and Maltase breakdown starch into sugar, yes. And that was all they apparently found during this study.

So the theory that they still aren't getting many vitamins or nutrients out of it stands. Fiber might still, just because of the bulk of the foods, but they don't seem to have found any other proteins or enzymes that suggest dogs are getting any real nutrition out of starches.
Which is why I said opens the door. It's still just my thought process but this study leads me to be more convinced that because they showed an ability to better break down starch that they might be more adapted to utilize the vitamins and nutrients found in them. It also leads me to hope more studies will continue to be done because as things stand right now most "theories" are internet conjecture to my knowledge.

ETA: I guess I complicated it more by adding talking about something other than starch and not keeping it directly related to this study. I just was getting annoyed listening again to the derision targeted at feeding vegetables in a raw diet. So, ignore me.
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  #72  
Old 01-25-2013, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by JacksonsMom View Post
But are potatoes, tapioca, lentils, and beans any better than barley, rice or oatmeal? I don't really see how they're particularly any more 'useful'. Believe me, I used to be very pro-grain-free (and I'm still not against it, at all) but the whole thing about grains being a waste, or whatever, I feel like they are just as equal as the starches used in grain free dog foods. Some dogs will obviously do better on one vs. the other, or some won't. But I don't think grain free is superior for most canines.
I have nothing against grains in dog food, but will not feed grain inclusive kibble.

The grains in kibble are, ugh. Okay, the two predominant ones are corn and rice. Rice is pretty okay. I've noticed that it tends to pass through my dogs when used in kibble, but they digest it just fine if I cook it myself and feed them a straight bowl of rice. I think that has to do with the temperature/cooking time of the grains they use or something. Either way, it's not working for them.

Corn. Hooookay now. 90-ish% of the corn grown in North America is GMO. The corn used in pet food comes from GMO varieties not approved for human consumption. Also, many of these corn varieties are engineered to withstand being sprayed with Roundup. So not only are they getting some unknown GMO weirdness, they're getting a good dose of herbicide that is proven to cause birth defects and other issues.

So, my dogs get grain free (potato based) kibble. They do eat grains though, in the same form people eat them. If they start getting too lean I add a bowl of oatmeal to their nightly meal and they do very well with it. Sometimes they eat pasta, or sandwich crusts, etc. Sometimes I even feed them corn, since I soak and grind organic field corn for me and the kids to eat.
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  #73  
Old 01-25-2013, 09:51 PM
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Apparently most humans have 5 or 6 copies of the gene with 14-15 being the high end. That's compared to dogs who have up to 30. Some humans only have two (I'm probably one of them, lol)

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2...man-evolution/

I wonder if dogs having up to twice the amount as humans is to compensate for their shorter digestive tract.

ETA: here's a more scientific source on human amylase
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2377015/
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  #74  
Old 01-25-2013, 10:09 PM
Psyfalcon Psyfalcon is offline
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Potatoes are grown with big pesticide loads. Not roundup, you don't need herbicides when you're hilling anyway, but pesticides for the various bugs that really like to eat potatoes and fungicides for the blights.
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  #75  
Old 01-25-2013, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JacksonsMom View Post
But are potatoes, tapioca, lentils, and beans any better than barley, rice or oatmeal? I don't really see how they're particularly any more 'useful'. Believe me, I used to be very pro-grain-free (and I'm still not against it, at all) but the whole thing about grains being a waste, or whatever, I feel like they are just as equal as the starches used in grain free dog foods. Some dogs will obviously do better on one vs. the other, or some won't. But I don't think grain free is superior for most canines.
For the record, I'm not really a fan of ANY of that being in my dogs' food. Yeah, a potato laden food is just as horrifying to me as a grain-heavy food.
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  #76  
Old 01-25-2013, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Psyfalcon View Post
Potatoes are grown with big pesticide loads. Not roundup, you don't need herbicides when you're hilling anyway, but pesticides for the various bugs that really like to eat potatoes and fungicides for the blights.
True. There's also the defoliant, not sure if they still use it or not. Ideally if I was rich I'd feed a home cooked diet of fresh grass feed meats and fish supplemented with some home cooked grains, but that's not in the near future. The big difference I see is that my dogs can digest the potato vs. the undercooked rice or whatever the problem is there.

I think Eagle Pack cooks their meat and grain kibble ingredients separately, IIRC. That way they're able to cook the grains at a high enough temperature to make them more digestible. Not sure if they're even in business still, since I haven't seen their food in years. They also use corn, but they use stuff fit for human consumption.
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  #77  
Old 01-25-2013, 10:40 PM
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Honestly I may be the only one around here that just thinks we 'dog people' sit around and overcomplicate the whole feeding business. Pretty much everything we 'know' is speculation and based upon anecdotes. There is not much hard science behind it in either direction. Hopefully this is a good step in the right direction.

Dogs evolved alongside us, surviving off our scraps. I have no doubt they can handle most of our food and survive off of it. Now what is 'ideal' is up for more debate.
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  #78  
Old 01-25-2013, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
Honestly I may be the only one around here that just thinks we 'dog people' sit around and overcomplicate the whole feeding business. Pretty much everything we 'know' is speculation and based upon anecdotes. There is not much hard science behind it in either direction. Hopefully this is a good step in the right direction.

Dogs evolved alongside us, surviving off our scraps. I have no doubt they can handle most of our food and survive off of it. Now what is 'ideal' is up for more debate.
Very true. If I had never discovered dog forums, Jackson would most likely be eating some kind of Purina, or something easily accessible at the grocery store. And honestly? I can't say he'd be doing any worse than he is now. I don't believe it to be ideal, and knowing what I know now, I'm somewhat of a dog food nerd. Ok, I am. I know way too much about it, lol, and the companies behind them, etc, so it's hard to ignore once you know it. And I enjoy discussing it. But like I said, there's just too many factors to really place the blame on food.
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  #79  
Old 01-25-2013, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by JacksonsMom View Post
Very true. If I had never discovered dog forums, Jackson would most likely be eating some kind of Purina, or something easily accessible at the grocery store. And honestly? I can't say he'd be doing any worse than he is now. I don't believe it to be ideal, and knowing what I know now, I'm somewhat of a dog food nerd. Ok, I am. I know way too much about it, lol, and the companies behind them, etc, so it's hard to ignore once you know it. And I enjoy discussing it.
Exactly this. Though I do think my dogs are better off on raw than they would be on the Pedigree we used to feed, if only because they aren't gross to the touch and sleep in my bed. Wait, that's better for me

Honestly, I just really don't understand the anger, meanness and hate that people show when talking about it. I mean, REALLY?! You care that much about the food I feed MY dogs? REALLY??

And especially when it gets into "Oh, you feed that insert high quality diet? Wow. I guess you don't know about this and this and this and want your dog to die. You should really be feeding this insert high quality diet."

But, I do like discussing it and will probably continue to do so.
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Linds View Post
Exactly this. Though I do think my dogs are better off on raw than they would be on the Pedigree we used to feed, if only because they aren't gross to the touch and sleep in my bed. Wait, that's better for me

Honestly, I just really don't understand the anger, meanness and hate that people show when talking about it. I mean, REALLY?! You care that much about the food I feed MY dogs? REALLY??

And especially when it gets into "Oh, you feed that insert high quality diet? Wow. I guess you don't know about this and this and this and want your dog to die. You should really be feeding this insert high quality diet."

But, I do like discussing it and will probably continue to do so.
While I don't think I am an ingredient label snob, I will TOTALLY admit to being a sourcing/company snob.
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