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Old 01-17-2013, 10:31 PM
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Default Techichi

A quick search showed that some people are calling the bigger deer headed pariah type chihuahuas techichis in reference to the breed's theoretical forebear. Should the two types go their separate ways & become separate breeds?
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:39 PM
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Interesting. I had never heard that term before and looked it up, read a couple links and have now learned something new

I can see how they might split and be done with it, seems reasonable to me. I'll be interested to see how this progresses.
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:25 PM
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Honestly... I think it's really, really stupid.

First, the Techichi hasn't been around for a long time. They were also supposedly long coated and mute... the "current Techichi" breeders are breeding for ~10lb, short coated, fawn colored dogs... and I'm sure they're not mute

Breed standard says the chihuahua is supposed to have an apple domed head. This is, in fact, a dominant feature. Two apple headed chihuahuas rarely have a "deer" headed offspring.

Chihuahua breeders who breed for the "deer" shaped head are BYBs. This would be like, say, breeding for GSDs with floppy ears.

It's honestly easier and cheaper to produce deer headed chihuahuas. They tend to be larger (females can hold more puppies and birth them easier due to head shape), they're available without neuter contracts (since BYBs are breeding them and don't care if they're sold and then bred), etc.

Calling a chihuahua that is out of breed standard a Techichi just makes no sense, considering Techichis have been gone for so long. It's just an excuse for BYBs to produce their poorly bred dogs while calling them something new and exciting.

Anyway, if you've seen any of the ancient artwork/statues/toys of Techichis, a lot of them look like apple heads:









If people really want to make the split and are health testing the "deer" head chihuahuas and coming up with some type of standard, it would be one thing. Calling them an ancient type of dog just makes me shake my head.
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Last edited by ~Jessie~; 01-18-2013 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Jessie~ View Post
Honestly... I think it's really, really stupid.

First, the Techichi hasn't been around for a long time. They were also supposedly long coated and mute... the "current Techichi" breeders are breeding for ~10lb, short coated, fawn colored dogs... and I'm sure they're not mute

Breed standard says the chihuahua is supposed to have an apple domed head. This is, in fact, a dominant feature. Two apple headed chihuahuas rarely have a "deer" headed offspring.

Chihuahua breeders who breed for the "deer" shaped head are BYBs. This would be like, say, breeding for GSDs with floppy ears.

It's honestly easier and cheaper to produce deer headed chihuahuas. They tend to be larger (females can hold more puppies and birth them easier due to head shape), they're available without neuter contracts (since BYBs are breeding them and don't care if they're sold and then bred), etc.

Calling a chihuahua that is out of breed standard a Techichi just makes no sense, considering Techichis have been gone for so long. It's just an excuse for BYBs to produce their poorly bred dogs while calling them something new and exciting.

Anyway, if you've seen any of the ancient artwork/statues/toys of Techichis, a lot of them look like apple heads:









If people really want to make the split and are health testing the "deer" head chihuahuas and coming up with some type of standard, it would be one thing. Calling them an ancient type of dog just makes me shake my head.
Except that the deer head type has been around as long as the apple head. In fact the Mexican hairless (now known as the xolo) was originally in the akc when the chi was. The deer head type very possibly goes back to coated MH being bred in by people that didn't know better. And where genetic research has shown the chi being directly descended from European dogs, it has also shown the xolo being descended directly from native stock. The deer head seems to fall right in the middle so maybe it would be best to separate into another breed. The antiquity claim isn't any more dishonest than other official AKC breed histories, so why not.
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:31 PM
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I prefer deer-headed, or 'fawn' Chihuahuas. I have only known one breeder but I certainly wouldn't call her a BYB. Her dogs were healthy, first and foremost, and had very nice temperaments and great personalities.

I'm uncomfortable calling her, or anyone like her, a BYB just because her dogs are out of standard.
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:50 PM
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Really it doesn't matter what they want, AKC will not accept them as a separate breed, unless they can be proven to be genetically separate from Chihuahuas.

The FSS® is not open to "rare" breeds that are a variation of an AKC-registrable breed or the result of a combination of two AKC-recognized breeds. This includes and is not limited to differences such as size (over and under), coat type, coat colors, and coat colors and/or types that are disqualifications from Conformation Events by AKC breed standards.

http://www.akc.org/reg/fss_details.cfm


Personally, I LOVE a well bred long haired Chihuahua, I don't like the 'deer head' style, they always look like byb dogs to me.
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:52 PM
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Well what does the AKC have to do with it, really? There are hundreds of breeds they don't recognize; if the deer-head did split away from the apple-head, it's not up to the AKC to acknowledge that before the two variations are seen as separate breeds by everyone else.
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Last edited by ravennr; 01-19-2013 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:56 PM
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Going off historical artwork doesn't give you a very accurate idea of what they looked like partly because it's so stylized. Also, the first piece you posted is recent. Really the only way to know for sure is to compare fossil skulls to modern skulls.

These are precolumbian techichi statues, from the Colima people, same as the last two pots in your post. The Colima made both applehead and deerhead techichi scultpures dating from 200 BC to 300 AD.










Colima boy feeding his dogs corn.


Keep in mind too that the Colima fattened these little dogs up (apparently on corn) and ate them. So the tubby bellies is not necessarily a representation of a companion or working dog at ideal weight.

ETA: dangity dang captchas

This pot was discovered near Bull Creek in Georgia, USA. It's only 700 years old. Some scientists believe it was made by people who fled the destruction wreaked by the spanish in the southwest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Jessie~ View Post


These are Colima dogs, and are precolumbian, made by the same people who made the deerheads I posted. So, if these are an accurate representation that means the Colima's dogs produced both head types.
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I do agree that if people want to do this right, there should, bare minimum, be a written standard of some sort. Health testing too.
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruffiangirl View Post
Really it doesn't matter what they want, AKC will not accept them as a separate breed, unless they can be proven to be genetically separate from Chihuahuas.

The FSS® is not open to "rare" breeds that are a variation of an AKC-registrable breed or the result of a combination of two AKC-recognized breeds. This includes and is not limited to differences such as size (over and under), coat type, coat colors, and coat colors and/or types that are disqualifications from Conformation Events by AKC breed standards.

http://www.akc.org/reg/fss_details.cfm


Personally, I LOVE a well bred long haired Chihuahua, I don't like the 'deer head' style, they always look like byb dogs to me.
Then how do they explain the wire haired vizsla & the miniature American sheperd? One is an out of standard coat variation & the other is mix of recognized breeds & a size variation.
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Old 01-19-2013, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pops2 View Post
Then how do they explain the wire haired vizsla & the miniature American sheperd? One is an out of standard coat variation & the other is mix of recognized breeds & a size variation.
See now that's a good question, I wonder how long before we see labradoodles and goldendoodles in the ring?


Are wire haired vizslas a totally separate breed?
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