Coolies

[avaloncoolies]

and if you told he was I would demand import docs and known pedigree

[avaloncoolies]

My dogs are German Coolies I thought that was said many times sorry :P

[LostAndConfused]

Originally Posted by CharlieDog

But, on the other hand, if most people who know what a Koolie is can look at a short coated BC with prick ears that's merle and know it's a BC and not a Koolie, or an ES that's the same and know it's not a BC, but an ES and definitely not a Koolie, how can that not be a breed?

Umm...ES don't come in merle........




Nothing else to contribute. This thread makes my head hurt.

[Psyfalcon]

So, the Coolie is bred from a working standard, that is different from other herding breeds, including the ACD and Kelpie. Any physical standard is loose.

Yet dogs can be disqualified from being a Coolie based on head shape and Tail Set.

Ok then. The more I try to figure out these dogs, the more I get confused.

We have a decade old breed split, resulting in different names.
We have two breed websites that say working ability is foremost, and then spend much more time talking about physical characteristics.

This is the entire working standard I found on the German Coolie registry page

Coolies have impeccable work ethics, unsurpassed biddability and superior temperaments. They are a versatile
breed and excel at any task that is set before them, rather it be herding livestock; performing in the sports arena;
Search and Rescue; or just being a companion.

Coolies are confident all-round dogs with a natural ability to head, heel, gather and fetch, as well as drive, livestock.
When gathering livestock together, they have the ability to keep them together quietly and confidently using speed
and force when needed. They will also hold the livestock using their body language, when necessary. Some Coolies
will "back" sheep (jumping on the back of the sheep to get the front ones moving). "Backing" isn't commonly taught
or practiced in the USA.

Coolies are hardy, athletic, displaying endurance and enough speed to outrun and head stock when required. They
have the ability to be tough and gritty on incompliant livestock and soft when the livestock are complying. They
remain alert on the job and relax when they are off livestock. Some call this an "on and off switch".

Coolies are extremely intelligent, take very few lessons to learn and naturally seem to know what to do while thinking
for himself. They readily take direction and commands. Coolies can adjust to any situation without stress and some
look forward to a challenge.

[Psyfalcon]

Originally Posted by avaloncoolies

and on a side note, the information given to you all at chaz so far has been pretty basic and superficial

Then lets have the real info.

What we have now is just driving us batty with internal inconsistencies.

[CharlieDog]

And the point I am trying to make is that dogs that look similar to landraces can pass for that landrace. I've never seen a smooth coated Aussie, so obviously it would be near impossible to convince an Aussie person he was an Aussie, but they would believe he was half Aussie (which he is. His mother was a prize winning stock dog) nor could he pass as a JRT, even though his father was a purebred JRT.

However, he looks enough Koolie to pass for Koolie to a layperson. Which most people are.

He's not similar enough to any "breed" to pass as that breed, which is whatever, he is what he is, except for Koolie. So again, had he been rescued in Australia, he would have been a Koolie/mix.

Anyway, the point being that it's not so easy to identify dogs that are a land-race a lot of the time. Perhaps expert-master people might be able to, but if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, most of the time it's called a duck. The only difference seems to be some of your ducks look like geese.

[JessLough]

Wait, ok, so in your opinion, are German Coolies and Australian Koolies the same breeds? Or different breeds?

Because it sounds to me like you're saying they are different breeds, but your dogs, even ones you have said are called Australian Koolies (or Coolies) are German Coolies. So are they different breeds, but you can use the names interchangabley? In that case, could I call an English Shepherd a German Shepherd?

[avaloncoolies]

It takes a trained eye to notice these differences in head shape, tail sets, etc...working style would be the easiest disqualification for any "imposter" to me, personally....the complexities of this breed are a bit to get ones head around, no doubt, another reason why not just anybody should jump on the "wow i love my new breed I want to breed it train"....research, imvested time and knowledge, extensif discussions with MULTIPLE different kennel owners from all "sides" of the name split....and much much more KNOWLEDGE ...knowing is all one can do as a breeding so we can "stack the deck" in our favor as much as possible for stable, even tempered, incredible working dogs that happen to be very very good looking

[CharlieDog]

Originally Posted by LostAndConfused

Umm...ES don't come in merle........

Nothing else to contribute. This thread makes my head hurt.

OOPS! Sorry!!! My bad!

Originally Posted by avaloncoolies

My dogs are German Coolies I thought that was said many times sorry :P

You HAVE said that. And you have ALSO said that your dogs have KOOLIE in their lines, and you have ALSO said mixing those two is not something to do because they are different breeds now, but OTHER (somehow lesser breeders seems to be what you are saying) breeders do this, but not YOU, and YET, you have ALSO SAID your dogs are Coolies with Koolie in their pedigree. SO WHAT DOES THAT MAKE THEM? Not German Coolies because that's Coolie to Coolie, and not Koolies, because that's Koolie to Koolie, and yet here you are breeding dogs that are from Koolie to Coolie, even if it was a few generations back, which is in all likelyhood less that ten years ago, because dogs can be bred quickly and change quickly.

Originally Posted by Psyfalcon

So, the Coolie is bred from a working standard, that is different from other herding breeds, including the ACD and Kelpie. Any physical standard is loose.

Yet dogs can be disqualified from being a Coolie based on head shape and Tail Set.

Ok then. The more I try to figure out these dogs, the more I get confused.

We have a decade old breed split, resulting in different names.
We have two breed websites that say working ability is foremost, and then spend much more time talking about physical characteristics.

Originally Posted by Psyfalcon

Then lets have the real info.

What we have now is just driving us batty with internal inconsistencies.

Yes. Thank you.

[~Jessie~]

Originally Posted by CharlieDog

And the point I am trying to make is that dogs that look similar to landraces can pass for that landrace. I've never seen a smooth coated Aussie, so obviously it would be near impossible to convince an Aussie person he was an Aussie, but they would believe he was half Aussie (which he is. His mother was a prize winning stock dog) nor could he pass as a JRT, even though his father was a purebred JRT.

However, he looks enough Koolie to pass for Koolie to a layperson. Which most people are.

He's not similar enough to any "breed" to pass as that breed, which is whatever, he is what he is, except for Koolie. So again, had he been rescued in Australia, he would have been a Koolie/mix.

Anyway, the point being that it's not so easy to identify dogs that are a land-race a lot of the time. Perhaps expert-master people might be able to, but if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, most of the time it's called a duck. The only difference seems to be some of your ducks look like geese.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!