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  #141  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Aleron View Post
As for litter consistency. If you have breeders doing tight breedings, that tends to give much more consistency within a litter/line. Outcrossing tends to allow for greater variance in litters. A lot of successful breeders use tight breedings or even inbreeding with occasional outcrosses which will be bred back into the original line.

Although Roust's grandparents are line bred but he's from very much an outcross breeding and that litter is extremely consistent. So much so that I was able to identify Blossom as his sister immediately with just seeing her in a Petfinder link on FB.
I have seen this in both ASTs and GSDs. Judge's first and only litter was a complete outcross. That litter was VERY consistent across the board. Very easy to identify them in my opinion. What's even more interesting is that his litter was very consistent and you can look at the current litter of puppies from a 1/2 brother of his and they look like the litter Judge produced. You can tell the puppies were related in some way.

Red girl-Judge's litter


Sookie-from his 1/2 brother


Steve-from Judge's full brother


MJ-Judge's litter


Stirling-from his 1/2 brother


To me, these puppies show consistency but yet variance, despite the variation in pedigrees. They to me look very related but different. Plus, these pictures are from different ages. Some at 9 weeks, others closer to 16 weeks.
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  #142  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by milos_mommy View Post
So so so many dog breeds have HUGE variances in lines and even litters, and I'm not talking show/field/working bred - with labs...I've never known anyone to hunt with a 100 lb labrador with a head like a brick and a really really short coat - but look at a breed like German Shepherds. There are enormous inconsistencies in dogs that are working, either in bite sport, as police dogs, etc...not just in pet/show bred dogs and different nationalities. And Aussies...working aussies come in a wide range of size/build/coat type/etc. Same thing with beagles...the list goes on and on.
BUT, in the breeds mentioned....They are all most definitely identifiable as GSDs,Aussies etc. Whereas, honestly, I could go to my local pound and find a dog that has the same structure and look as some of the Coolies posted.

I stand strong that they are as inconsistent as Doodles and the likes. Plus, without a breed standard, what are the breeders breeding towards? That leaves too much variance in the breed.
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  #143  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:46 PM
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I'm slightly confused how people choose their breeders if they prefer dogs without consistency. That said, I give. I don't really have enough engaged to challenge further. To each their own, I prefer to know what I'm getting in a litter of pups such as moderately predictable structure, consistent temperaments, relatively arched drives, and generalized looks but not everyone prefers not to buy the same. If I every plan to play the spice of variety game I'll buy a mystery from a shelter.

I see more similarity between Coolies/Koolies after more looking but I'm still understanding it is to be a type more than a breed by what is being shared when said each breeder holds their own "style" of coolie.

It's interesting none the less, though, and I appreciate those who've tried to discuss it both on and off Chaz without brushing it off as unimportant.
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  #144  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Red Chrome View Post
Whereas, honestly, I could go to my local pound and find a dog that has the same structure and look as some of the Coolies posted.
Do you think you could find a dog with the same structure and look, who also has the ability to work (either performance or cattle work) as a Coolie does? And if so, do you think that's going to be as guaranteed as getting a Coolie from a breeder of working dogs OR as easy to find as a breeder dog?

I could go to the pound and find a dog that has the exact same structure and look as field labs, but that doesn't mean a) the dog is all, most, or even at all labrador, or b) the dog is going to be capable of being a working hunting companion. Same goes for GSDs/Aussies or BCs/most Northern Breeds.
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  #145  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:02 PM
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Dog sledders will argue that the Alaskan Husky is not a breed, but a type. Some of the variation in Coolies seems to be on the same level, but we're now calling it a breed to dissuade outcrossing while the mushers want to keep outcrossing (to other breeds).
From the first post.

Quote:
They have been bred for working stock, large numbers of sheep or cattle over big arid spaces. Best worker to best worker is how this breed came about existing. They are upright workers and do not "lock on" to stock, very fluid, quiet and confident. Preserving them as "working dogs" is very important to this breeds history, it is what made them so special in the first place. They "back sheep", short cut to gates, fence stuck sheep, splitting up in chutes...they will jump on top of the sheep and run across their backs, the handler then give a "drop" command and dog drops into the herd to push....this is a trait particular to the coolie, and personally this is one of the traits that leads coolies to want to climb things, and explains how they are built to clear 6ft fencing from a stand still.
How can this dog exist outside of Australia? If the only thing making a Coolie a Coolie is the way it works, which appears peculiar to Aus, can a Coolie be a Coolie outside of Aus?

You say Coolies must work in large spaces, but then the bulk of what you mentioned is working in stock yards. I was under the impression that the ACD is more of the pusher for working big areas. How exactly are they functionally different from the ACD or even the BC/ACD mixes that seem really, really common in the American West?
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  #146  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:03 PM
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I don't think I see as much difference as you do in those dogs. I see the basics (look-wise) the same. More variety than you'd see in a purely show bred litter, for sure. I don't think it is near the same as buying from a shelter. If we're seeing pup 1 looking like a border collie, pup 2 looking like a beagle, 3 looking like a chihuahua, etc then I would have a problem.
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  #147  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milos_mommy View Post
Do you think you could find a dog with the same structure and look, who also has the ability to work (either performance or cattle work) as a Coolie does? And if so, do you think that's going to be as guaranteed as getting a Coolie from a breeder of working dogs OR as easy to find as a breeder dog?
Yes, I do feel I could. I live in farm land, tons of herder crosses that look like Coolies and from what I can tell work like them. Of course it wouldn't be as guaranteed. My point is that there is no standard and after a ton of thinking adn reading, it is of my opinion that Coolie is NOT a breed but a type due to not having a standard. Too much inconsistency in the breed to breed true as a breed should.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milos_mommy View Post
I could go to the pound and find a dog that has the exact same structure and look as field labs, but that doesn't mean a) the dog is all, most, or even at all labrador, or b) the dog is going to be capable of being a working hunting companion. Same goes for GSDs/Aussies or BCs/most Northern Breeds.
BUT...those breeds have standards, you can judge a dog by. Coolies have no standard. They also don't produce consistently across the board. I'd love to know the breeds that went into making this "breed". They seem like fun dogs, but someone needs to step up and make it a breed or not.
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  #148  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyfalcon View Post
Dog sledders will argue that the Alaskan Husky is not a breed, but a type. Some of the variation in Coolies seems to be on the same level, but we're now calling it a breed to dissuade outcrossing while the mushers want to keep outcrossing (to other breeds).
From the first post.



How can this dog exist outside of Australia? If the only thing making a Coolie a Coolie is the way it works, which appears peculiar to Aus, can a Coolie be a Coolie outside of Aus?

You say Coolies must work in large spaces, but then the bulk of what you mentioned is working in stock yards. I was under the impression that the ACD is more of the pusher for working big areas. How exactly are they functionally different from the ACD or even the BC/ACD mixes that seem really, really common in the American West?

Not to mention that the Kelpie is also famous for running on the backs of sheep. I'm not a Kelpie expert. Personally, I think my dog looks like a herding mix. And that's probably what she is. Just so happens she looks the most like a Kelpie and it happens to be a 'breed'.

I think it's great that Avalon breeds dogs that are working dogs. I think it really just comes to a matter of preference.

I prefer breeds that are simple. I want to know what I'm getting myself into. It's not JUST about looks, but that's how most people determine what breed a dog is. The look of it. For people who don't research every breeder of a breed, this makes sense.

Some people breed for work, others are not focused on the working aspect of the dog. I don't think this is really a problem.

What are the main differences between a C/Koolie and a Kelpie or other Aus. herding breeds? There are too many similarities in these herding breeds. It's so confusing.
  #149  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyfalcon View Post
Dog sledders will argue that the Alaskan Husky is not a breed, but a type. Some of the variation in Coolies seems to be on the same level, but we're now calling it a breed to dissuade outcrossing while the mushers want to keep outcrossing (to other breeds).
From the first post.



How can this dog exist outside of Australia? If the only thing making a Coolie a Coolie is the way it works, which appears peculiar to Aus, can a Coolie be a Coolie outside of Aus?

You say Coolies must work in large spaces, but then the bulk of what you mentioned is working in stock yards. I was under the impression that the ACD is more of the pusher for working big areas. How exactly are they functionally different from the ACD or even the BC/ACD mixes that seem really, really common in the American West?
Good post, great example.
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  #150  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avaloncoolies View Post
Thought I would be rude commenting on ZipTies thread but yet really wanted to answer the questions posed, such valid questions:

Registries available for information and record keeping on this breed:
.Koolie Club of Australia
.Working Koolie Club
.Aus. Coolie Council
.International GC Society & Registry Aus.branch
.International GC Society & Registry USA branch

They all have a code of ethics and a breed standard (some differ from others), records of dogs and kennels. German Coolies have had a record kept of them in Aus and overseas by the IGCS&R.

They have been bred for working stock, large numbers of sheep or cattle over big arid spaces. Best worker to best worker is how this breed came about existing. They are upright workers and do not "lock on" to stock, very fluid, quiet and confident. Preserving them as "working dogs" is very important to this breeds history, it is what made them so special in the first place. They "back sheep", short cut to gates, fence stuck sheep, splitting up in chutes...they will jump on top of the sheep and run across their backs, the handler then give a "drop" command and dog drops into the herd to push....this is a trait particular to the coolie, and personally this is one of the traits that leads coolies to want to climb things, and explains how they are built to clear 6ft fencing from a stand still.

They have started to catch the eye of sport homes around the world, Finland, Netherlands, Germany, Canada, USA, for sports like agility, flyball, rallyo and so much more...but we must not forget about what they were bred for in all of the excitement. And as the breed begins to establish itself overseas I do strongly believe breeders (aus and others) need to be diligent in whom they allow breeding rights to...preservation of their herding instinct, health, history and stable temperament depends on it. The qualities found in working dogs (stock) are what makes these dogs versatile at all the other things people are wanting to use them for.

Breeding rights are NOT just a RIGHT...its a privilege. In my case using my dogs on stock was VERY important to my breeders decision to send me dogs with breeding in the future on the table. In 2007 when we brought our first coolies over we understood we were introducing a new breed to North America and having different lines for a healthy gene pool was crucial and having the right combinations were even more important, basically having a plan for where we were going with this...One of my boys was 8 months, another was 11months, one girl was 4months and only one of my imports was actually 8 weeks when we greeted them at the airport...the check list had to check out first before anyone was going to come overseas...working ability, right lines, right combos, right temperament, right time and more...One of the things I do respect Linds breeder for is his passion for coolies remaining a working breed, and to have proven working parents for breeding.

One of the reason I do not allow breeding contracts (other then being burnt once before) is to monitor that all these important points are being met. There is no need to "shape" this breed anywhere (USA or other), it is perfect just the way it is...if bred for specifics (sport specifics) the breed might not look, act or be the same in 5 to 7 years overseas because in AUs they are 95% of the time bred for stock. There is enough division in this breed that we do not need to add a geographical element to this division. By that I mean if now USA coolie lines look and act differently by loosing their herding ability then now we will have German Coolies, Australian Koolies and American K?Coolies....^sigh

Now I know we must revisit the health testing thing, and honestly from someone who needed these dogs to work the ranch and represent my training abilities, certification has never been a concern for me (even while placing pups over the last 6 years with sport homes), mainly because amongst working ranchers it is just not important. Certification is important to dedicated performance homes more so then us ranchers. So I understand the desire to have these certification for guarantee for their dogs career as a champion...I, myself, had never experienced the passion behind such tests until Chaz, and for the professional goals set by these sport homes it should be important for you when you are investing $1000+ for your next champion. So I think if I do choose to go more seriously into "the niche" of sports I will have to certify my dogs for sure...I am not against dogs being tested, not at all...just never saw the benefit for me...but yes there is benefit for the buyer for sure...and the breed when there is a history of HD and I might continue to take interest in the process as we go...if this breed keeps moving forward in this direction (performance) it might have to be sooner rather then later.
I think what transpired in my welcome thread, other then my caught off guard by the passion behind certification, was my fear that this breed is being “popularized” and impulsively mass imported with the sole purpose of targeting the dog sport performance “market” or “niche” (terms I would never use in my breeding program). I do apologize for my reaction, and my history with Linds and Sara should not have anything to do with any of you.

I truely am wanting to share a different point of view and angle on this amazing breed with people who obviously are interested in learning more. And I hope to be able to do that with you all.

"MUST" was never used when mentioning big arid spaces...coolies can do either or, and ALL...versatility is a breed trait, they can do anything you ask them to do...standars are in each registry, code of ethics, meetings, minute records, explusion terms and legal matters...in each club. Again, variety within the breed YES, consistency amongst breeders YES, difference between Coolie and Koolie YES (obvious to even some here already), breed standard to adhere to YES (ex: straight across the board in all clubs in breed standard: brindle is not a accepted color...just one example from text refrence)
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