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  #131  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:01 PM
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I think we found the problem, I intend to eat puppies.

Oh and those Pyr all share the same muppety Punky Brewster look, IMO.
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  #132  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
Aleron, I specified, or maybe only Fran and Shai saw it, that I accept variance in the breed. However I was thrown by using variance in a single litter as "okay".

If I go for a litter I want to know what I'll be eating. I'm confused by anyone who does not.
Variety is the spice of life? Fits what you want, maybe not what others care for? This is why we are all lucky we can pick and choose breeders who fit our needs
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  #133  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
Honestly, consistency looks wise is not a concern for me much.

I prefer a breeder that is breeding for structure and yes, some breed type. But as far as the extreme consistency in type you see in a lot of show type lines, then no. It's not a concern to me. I believe you can breed for good structure without getting hung up on what I view as minor issues.

Consistent temperament is more of a concern to me. But I don't think that consistency in temperament is necessarily reflected in the looks of a group of dogs.

I honestly think with the aussies, a lot is that people are so used to the show type and the full drop ears just because that is what is most common.
This.

I also agree that I don't see the Coolies I've seen pics of as being more different than the wide variety you see in border collies.

If you look at labs there is a LOT of variety. Dogs ranging in size from 50-something lbs to 100lbs ( and not always just due to fat), very short double coats to longers ones with waving, very narrow, weedy, almost houndish build to overly blocky and sticky build-and these are dogs with a set standard. Dogs that are suited to no more than casual water retrieves to retrieving machines and now the addition of the controversial pointing labs.

I guess my question would be that as long as the dogs are not suffering somehow and the coolie people are fine with some variety in the breed, even happy with it, what is the issue?
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  #134  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:45 PM
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I'm not sure that there really is a huge inconsistency of type in a Koolie litter. I mean, look at Didgie and Zinga. (It's those cursed Toolalla dogs again though )
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  #135  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
I think we found the problem, I intend to eat puppies.

Oh and those Pyr all share the same muppety Punky Brewster look, IMO.
LOL So it's been determined. The key to PyrShep type is they must have a Muppet-y essence. Hard to describe but impossible to miss when present

The thing with PyrSheps is...if you made them all the same size, gave them all consistent ears and tails and gave them slick, tan coats...they all are fairly similar structure/build wise and have similar expression. Not identical but similar. When you see them together at shows though, I don't think any other breed can have an entry where pretty much none of the dogs look the same. There is variance in type in all breed but the variety in looks in PyrSheps really throws people. Oh and I forgot...they can have double rear dews, single rear dews or no rear dews. OMG that makes Briard people crazy because if they should have them, they should have them and be disqualified it not! I have been lectured by more Briard people at dog shows over how PyrSheps look or don't look or what their standard should or shouldn't allow. Just random Briard people feel the need to come up and tell me "you know this breed needs more consistency, I don't know what the breeders involved are thinking but all of these dogs just can't be correct!". I really hope the breed always keeps their variety and doesn't fall to the pressure of the dog show purists to "have a better defined standard". They are as a breed, very inbred which makes the fact there is so much variety sort of interesting. They're basically an ancient landrace and the dogs today, still look like historical pictures of PyrSheps in the Pyrenees mountains. There's probably more SFs now though because some people breed for SFs, when historically they just sort of happened.
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  #136  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:59 PM
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Honestly, I don't see how we can compare any dog with a written standard to Coolies. Coolies don't have a written standard and are honestly IMHO as inconsistent as Goldendoodles, Labradoodles,Schnoodles and Cockapoos.
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  #137  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:02 PM
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As for litter consistency. If you have breeders doing tight breedings, that tends to give much more consistency within a litter/line. Outcrossing tends to allow for greater variance in litters. A lot of successful breeders use tight breedings or even inbreeding with occasional outcrosses which will be bred back into the original line.

Although Roust's grandparents are line bred but he's from very much an outcross breeding and that litter is extremely consistent. So much so that I was able to identify Blossom as his sister immediately with just seeing her in a Petfinder link on FB.
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  #138  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:05 PM
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Having consistency I think is what a breeder strives for within their lines, and I beleive each breeder has that within their program...

I also believe that having diversity within a breed is beneficial, in sorts not to breed yourself into a corner. One of the reason I chose to have dogs from 3 different kennels for my breeding program...with only one line running thru your dogs I would say one is not really starting anything as to a breeding program...simply continuing on with someone elses breeding program...to truely say "we have our own line of fill in the blank" there should be some kind of "forging" something new.

I breed for dogs between 35lbs and 40lbs, medium coat (as i do live in -30c 6 months out of the year), solids are more then welcome and I would say embraced, solids are ALWAYS involved in our breedings which does lead to more solids in my lines (which i think is a huge factor in people here not "recognizing" the coolie :as merles have been the choice coolie to "show off" on this forum), I want coolies that can jump, run for days, I like a finer head with pricked ears but love my semi pricked just as much...i like my dogs to mature around 18inches to 20inches, and most of all be smart, sharp and have a excellent emotional control and off switch...cuddle bugs are my thing...we wanted to create a dog that can work all day in your sport of choice but that will want to snuggle up and watch a movie with you if that strikes your fancy...

As pointed out before, breeding for LOOKS and looks alone (for whatever reason: consistency in the breed, producing more merles because they have better resale, wanting pricked eared dogs only etc...) will only do one thing: be detrimental to any breed, not just the coolie....it only leads to unethical practices IMO (merle to merle, culling pups, father/daughter breedings, etc...)

I can only speak for coolies as I have not been involved in breeding or working any other breed on stock. As a dog trainer for a career I can say that anyone getting a Avalon coolie knows exactly what they are getting, very consistent...just today someone from Aus joined the German Coolie group on facebook and posted a pic of their little boy and I knew exactly which kennel he came from, right away...ear set, shape, fine head, straight back, white feet....even in his slight tilt of the head for the picture...just screamed at me...trained coolie eye that all. Because the dogs posted about are absolutly beautiful but my eye is not trained in them so i am not seeing what some of you are seeing...
  #139  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:08 PM
avaloncoolies avaloncoolies is offline
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And refering back to the beginning of the thread if you find the web sited for the different coolie/koolie/working koolie association you will they have their own "breed standard" and "code of ethics" with links to the different kennels assiciated with them
  #140  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:20 PM
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So so so many dog breeds have HUGE variances in lines and even litters, and I'm not talking show/field/working bred - with labs...I've never known anyone to hunt with a 100 lb labrador with a head like a brick and a really really short coat - but look at a breed like German Shepherds. There are enormous inconsistencies in dogs that are working, either in bite sport, as police dogs, etc...not just in pet/show bred dogs and different nationalities. And Aussies...working aussies come in a wide range of size/build/coat type/etc. Same thing with beagles...the list goes on and on.
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