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  #81  
Old 01-05-2013, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
I actually have the picture. Hope she doesn't mind. I think Shaine would get pegged as a BC very often without seeing the tail.

http://i33.tinypic.com/110ekqt.jpg
I love love love that picture because it shows just how much aussies can vary even within a litter.

ETA: Cara gets BC a lot online if the picture does not include her tail or rather lack there of, I have a feeling it has to do with her smaller build.
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  #82  
Old 01-05-2013, 11:27 PM
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Woah, that's all the same litter? That's really interesting.
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  #83  
Old 01-05-2013, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by adrianneisabel View Post
to me a standardized temperament and look is what makes a line or type of dog into a breed.

Breeding true, producing similarity in more than one aspect.

Otherwise you have a "type" and in that theory i could breed anything (any dog, sharing bloodlines or not" and have a border collie as long as it herds the same way, no?
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Originally Posted by adrianneisabel View Post
you think steve and finn look different? How so?

However, the question is not "can there be variance" the question is... What makes a border collie a border collie, or a coolie a coolie? If it's merely working style and backup works sheep like my old bosses border collies, is he a border collie? Or stafinois put grant on sheep once, would he now be recatagorized as a coolie if he potentially worked sheep in the same style?

I feel there should be more signifying a breed beyond "works stock the same" and while looks are not everything they can help standardize. If this is a flawed logic then i would love an education.
this!
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  #84  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:22 AM
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The talk of structure is pretty fascinating to me. It's true that structure and appearance varies widely within MANY herding breeds. I wanted to share a few photos from Finn's breeder (that many of you have seen before I'm sure). A number of these dogs are line-bred to a degree and still their structures are very different. The variations can be strong even when you're just dealing with tri-coloured working bred BCs within the same lines.

You saw Finn's sire Coal in Laur's post. Stocky, strong, tall, short-coated... aside from the tri you'd never know he and Finn were related:


Finn's grandsire Hawk, father of Coal (left) and half-brother Frost (out of Rio, unrelated to Coal's lines) are both similar in structure and appearance. Both fluffy, stocky and strong.


And then add in small, waify Rio in front, Finn's dam (and clearly who he primarily takes after) and short-coated Beauty behind her, Coal's litter sister, who if I had to compare is very similar in shape and looks to Blaze (except for the tri, obviously):


And adult Finn, for reference. My observations are that he's way fluffier than either of his parents and maintains the stockiness of his grandsire and father, but has the expression and facial structure of his dam. Prick ears are from grand-dam. Anyways, my point is even HE looks entirely different from his lineage.


Again, that's all in essentially a single line of tri-colour border collies. TO me, rather fascinating. I wish I had some photos of Finn's grand dam and more of the offspring.

(I also want to note that his breeder doesn't intentionally breed only tris, her chosen dogs have all been due to working ability and health tests, but coincidentally they are tris!)
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  #85  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:51 AM
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My question further extends to those with such variety in their breeders litters, do you not seek a breeder who can produce a consistent look and temperament?

By looks I mean structure (chest, back, feet), coat type (wire, tight, double), and traits (hound ears, lack of pigment, scissor bite).
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  #86  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
My question further extends to those with such variety in their breeders litters, do you not seek a breeder who can produce a consistent look and temperament?
The aussie litter is out of a HOF kennel known for producing outstanding dogs. The variety in aussies is one of the things I love about them.
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  #87  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:59 AM
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Lack of consistency in, per say, doodles is often used as a con or argument against their validity. "Inability to produce a constant outcome." So, color me.. confused?
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  #88  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
My question further extends to those with such variety in their breeders litters, do you not seek a breeder who can produce a consistent look and temperament?

By looks I mean structure (chest, back, feet), coat type (wire, tight, double), and traits (hound ears, lack of pigment, scissor bite).
GSDs are a breed that has a ton of variety. BUT, it is almost always blantantly obvious what breed they are and even what lines they come from, West German Showlines, American Showlines, DDR Working lines, Czech working lines or West German Working lines.

If GSD breeders were producing the kind of inconsistency in structure that I am a seeing in Coolies, I'd be seriously concerned about the workability. I see a lot of Coolie's with extremely high rears which in my experience leads to front end problems as well as causing back problems from the high rear.

Honestly, it sounds like the game bred APBT breeders regarding health testing, no need for it, they work so they can't have it. I knew a Rottie that had the worst set of hips ever, that dog worked hard till it was 10 years old, dog was a hobby sport dog and companion, never health tested until they noticed short steps in the rear. Drive in dogs can overpower pain IMHO.
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  #89  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Red Chrome View Post
I knew a Rottie that had the worst set of hips ever, that dog worked hard till it was 10 years old, dog was a hobby sport dog and companion, never health tested until they noticed short steps in the rear. Drive in dogs can overpower pain IMHO.
I always wish we had xrays of these dogs (this type of example) at a young age. I have a friend who's Dogo was sired by a dog who at 12 had horrific hip issues, until then he'd been hunting hogs and working security on the ranch, never showing a sign. I brought this up once as an example of and the rebuttle was given, but the dog is 12... who's to say the hips didn't just break down after that hard of work for that long? It's an interesting point.
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  #90  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:51 AM
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As a coolie owner for going on 8 years now, breeder for 4 1/2years, I have spent hours upon hours looking at different kennels, lines, pics from the 1800's of the breed involved in producing the breed, pics from all different regions of Aus. Differences within the breed YES (size, head shape, weight, build, height, ear set etc...) but I find that amongst breeders the consistency is there...I can by eye, pick out a Toolalla dog, a Tjukurpa dog, a Yatahae dog, a Hunterslea, a Coolibah and Borahview of course...no problem, very much consistency in litters produced within the different breeding programs.
My self, and others including Sara and Linds I am sure (check back the pots with Tamlyn, Lindsey picked out he was Avalon in 2sec.) can recognize a dog bred by these different breeders...simply because we look at them all the time, just like you do with your Mals, Aussies, Paps, and more...
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