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  #21  
Old 01-03-2013, 09:41 AM
SevenSins
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Flyinsbt, just for the sake of argument - if I came to you for a Staffy puppy (assuming that you'd known me long enough to know that I'd provide a good, knowledgeable and breed-experienced home) and ...for whatever reason, I assume because I thought it would look better than all-natural... requested that you essentially concede to sell me first pick of the entire litter, then dock and do dewclaws on the pup, and have its ears cropped, would you do it? What would you do if I got the puppy home and our personalities completely clashed?
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  #22  
Old 01-03-2013, 09:59 AM
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Does a tail make a dog unable to be returned and rehomed in a pet or sport home?
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  #23  
Old 01-03-2013, 10:05 AM
SevenSins
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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
Does a tail make a dog unable to be returned and rehomed in a pet or sport home?
Unable? Well, no, I wouldn't think so. More difficult? It depends. A lot of people simply won't adopt a traditionally cropped or docked (in their country) breed that's been left natural, so that definitely can make them more difficult to place. I can only speak for myself but if I was looking for a pet Dobe, or Boxer, I wouldn't adopt an undocked dog for the same reason I wouldn't adopt something like a cropped Rottweiler.
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  #24  
Old 01-03-2013, 10:43 AM
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On the other hand, Seven, there are people who wait specifically for an all-natural dog of a certain breed that they can adopt. If I was adopting a Dobe, I'd be ecstatic to find an all-natural dog. Same goes with a Boxer, a Rottweiler, a Dane, a Poodle, a Cocker, etc.
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  #25  
Old 01-03-2013, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Julee View Post
On the other hand, Seven, there are people who wait specifically for an all-natural dog of a certain breed that they can adopt. If I was adopting a Dobe, I'd be ecstatic to find an all-natural dog. Same goes with a Boxer, a Rottweiler, a Dane, a Poodle, a Cocker, etc.
Sure they do, but they normally wait for one of those from rescue or foreign breeder for the reason I originally stated: What sort of breeder is going to make an exception and allow someone to pick out a dog at just a couple days old, with absolutely no way to determine the temperament and personality of the puppy, just because they want an all-natural dog, if the breed is required to be docked as per the breed standard?

The argument could be made that the person just wants a pet or wants a performance dog, and doesn't care about the breed ring. Fine, but you still run into the problem of the puppy's temperament, personality, drive, etc, clashing with what the potential owner actually wants, regardless of whether they'll concede to being stuck with whatever puppy they get no matter what. As a buyer, I wouldn't want to be stuck with a puppy I clashed with, and as a breeder I can't even imagine a scenario where I would be comfortable with putting myself, my puppies or a potential puppy buyer in that position.
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  #26  
Old 01-03-2013, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SevenSins View Post
Flyinsbt, just for the sake of argument - if I came to you for a Staffy puppy (assuming that you'd known me long enough to know that I'd provide a good, knowledgeable and breed-experienced home) and ...for whatever reason, I assume because I thought it would look better than all-natural... requested that you essentially concede to sell me first pick of the entire litter, then dock and do dewclaws on the pup, and have its ears cropped, would you do it? What would you do if I got the puppy home and our personalities completely clashed?
I've actually seen a Stafford that the owner had cropped. I didn't approve, because I don't like cropping, but it's been known to happen, and probably wouldn't affect the ability to rehome a dog. Removing dewclaws is allowed in the standard, so that part isn't really relevant, most SBT owners just don't choose to do it. I know my dogs use theirs, other breeders just don't want the unnecessary expense/effort.

The fact is, there are good and valid reasons to want a natural dog, besides liking a certain look. If someone came to me wanting a Stafford pup with pieces cut off of it because they preferred the look, our values would already be clashing to the point where it was obvious they wouldn't be an appropriate home for one of my pups. So no, it wouldn't seem like a perfect home.

If there were some reason that a person could come up with that a docked/cropped dog would be better at something, or they could take that docked/cropped dog to compete in an area which they couldn't do with a natural dog, it might be more of a point of discussion.

Look, I'm not saying this is a choice you need to make with your own dogs. They are your dogs, set the criteria you like. I just object, rather strongly, to being told that a breeder is "irresponsible" for wanting to put a dog in a really good home, or for being open to the idea that there might be reasons to leave a dog natural. (the line my friend is supposed to use, btw, if people ask, is that the dog might be competing in Europe. Her actual reason for wanting a tail was to improve the dog's abilities in agility. There are actually a ton of tailed Poodles in agility these days, my friend just wanted one from this breeder.)
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  #27  
Old 01-03-2013, 04:36 PM
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Wanting a dog with a natural tail that is generally cut off and wanting a dog with cropped ears and docked tail of a breed that is supposed to have natural ears and tail are two completely different things and not at all comparable...
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  #28  
Old 01-03-2013, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatStina View Post
Wanting a dog with a natural tail that is generally cut off and wanting a dog with cropped ears and docked tail of a breed that is supposed to have natural ears and tail are two completely different things and not at all comparable...
How so?

(I have no horse in this race! I'm just curious.)
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  #29  
Old 01-03-2013, 05:31 PM
CatStina CatStina is offline
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Do you really not see why wanting someone to perform unnecessary surgery on a breed that does not generally have such surgeries is different from not wanting someone to perform surgery on your future puppy when it isn't necessary?
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  #30  
Old 01-03-2013, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by CatStina View Post
Do you really not see why wanting someone to perform unnecessary surgery on a breed that does not generally have such surgeries is different from not wanting someone to perform surgery on your future puppy when it isn't necessary?
Did you really not see that I was just curious?

I don't know, we do lots of unnecessary things to dogs based on things like our lifestyles, personal preferences, breed standards, goals, etc. I don't know that I personally find cropping an untraditional breed "worse" than cropping a traditional breed, except where it affects the dogs welfare, i.e. if the dog or mix had ears were likely to suffer or unlikely to ever stand after being cropped.

I was hoping you might have a thoughtful answer based on things like the factors I presented above. Or maybe based on something I'd never even thought of, which would be even more interesting. You seem to hold your point as being self evident. I disagree, and thought you might have something interesting to contribute.
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