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  #131  
Old 01-02-2013, 05:01 PM
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Linds Linds is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avaloncoolies View Post
Linds & Sara....going behind my back after not agreing to sell a pup on breeding contract and asking owners of intact solid Avalon females to breed Trav to was the straw that broke the camels back for you two
I am seriously sitting here just so incredibly confused. Like, seriously confused. If this is what you're hate stems from then I don't know what to say because that never ever happened.

The only intact solid dog from your kennel I know of is Rumor and I never asked to breed Traveler to her. Ever.
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  #132  
Old 01-02-2013, 05:02 PM
SaraB SaraB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avaloncoolies View Post
does that answer your question Sara about when you have been dishonest
Um not really. Seeing as though Trav is not my dog, I'm not in contact with any owners of avalon dogs, and am 100% certain no breedings have taken place.

So again, how have I been dishonest with you Shawn?
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  #133  
Old 01-02-2013, 05:09 PM
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Shai Shai is offline
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Originally Posted by stardogs View Post
I don't have a horse in this race, but since I've been looking at health clearances for my own dogs recently, here's my contribution.

Hip rads here (NC, USA) run about $75 each - perhaps someone was quoting you the price for fully sedated xrays with multiple views and submission costs? Anesthesia will raise costs significantly.

My malinois, who I have no plans of breeding, will be xrayed and submitted to OFA at some point because 1. I'm curious and if I get xrays I might as well submit, 2. the info would be helpful for my breeder, and 3. the info would add to the data available on rates of dysplasia in my breed. There's no reason to suspect she'll have anything but nice hips, but that's not the point - it's to further the progress of the breed. I really don't understand having the xrays but not sharing the results.

FYI OVC is no longer taking hip/elbow rads for certification. Your options are PennHip (which could easily be close to the figure you quoted - last I checked it was nearly $300) or OFA ($30 for prelims, $35 for adult dogs, $15 each if you submit 5 or more dogs at the same time: http://www.offa.org/).

I personally will never buy from someone who doesn't have breed appropriate health clearances on file. In malinois, that does limit my options, but if I want a crap shoot, I'll get a dog from a shelter or a rescue.
Yeah all three of mine are done, the Flatcoat and the two mystery mutts. Cost $150 for the X-rays and $30-35 to submit them (K&W were done back in 2009). Which was the point of my original question (back on Page 5)...when most of the cost is in the X-rays and that part is being supposedly being done, I cannot for the life of me understand a breeder not submitting them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avaloncoolies View Post
That is all I wanted to hear :"richie does have more controversial breeding methods (breeding dogs on chains, not checking newborns for 3 days and much more.,...) and you would not dream of telling him how to breed".....all I ask is the same respect (if not more since my breeding practices are not even comparable to his poor choices)...
As has been stated multiple times, the Toolalla breeder would also get questions of this nature if he were to join this forum. Others have historically been asked these questions upon joining this forum or deciding to breed. I expect that I will get the same questions if and when my FCR is bred, despite it being in conjunction with her co-owners who are well established in the breed, and I am find with that. You are already getting exactly as you request -- the same treatment as everyone else.
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  #134  
Old 01-02-2013, 05:18 PM
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Linds Linds is offline
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So I just went though all my fb messages and I truly don't know what you are talking about Shawn.

But, to set the record straight: I have no plans on breeding Traveler to one of your dogs nor have I ever had that plan. I had thought that if I did decide to breed one day it would be nice having someone on this continent to maybe get help from and possibly share lines. But that's as complete as those musing got.

I don't speak to very many Avalon owners because of the huge "falling out" you and I had. I do speak to Rumor's owner on occasion but know she has no intention of breeding her nor have I asked to breed to her, well to have Traveler breed to her dog.

I've said time and time again I only intend to breed Traveler if he gets appropriate titles, health certifications and so on. Because of that I really haven't been looking for a solid female and in fact turned down an offer already as I would have done if you had ever asked me to stud Traveler out to you (Which she never did, for the record)

I think you need a new source because the one you have is not given true information or things are being lost in translation.

But, out in the open, publicly and unable to be deleted: I have never asked to breed Traveler to any dog from your kennel nor do I ever intend to.
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  #135  
Old 01-02-2013, 05:18 PM
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We got a 560 quote for pennhip but a 250 quote is average for OFA hip rads.

Could you be confused with your certifying organization?
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  #136  
Old 01-02-2013, 05:18 PM
SaraB SaraB is offline
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Shawn, I sent you a PM.

Nobody on Chaz wants to see this thread continue on in the fashion it is.
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  #137  
Old 01-02-2013, 05:20 PM
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I think the reason Richie doesn't get questioned as much is because he's an older man who has been breeding solely working ranch dogs for years and years a certain way, and honestly there is no changing his mind or the way he does things. It's not that whether he does or does not health test bothers people less than other breeders who don't test. It's just that there really isn't much point in getting into it with him or some of the other older breeders. I think the fact that he's opened up his breeding program to include solid coloured dogs is about the most improvement/change you're going to get from him at this point. He's a stubborn old rancher (and a very nice man, even if he does have some questionable breeding ethics)... there is no changing his mind.

I did ask him about health testing but I definitely wasn't going to interrogate him about it (just as I didn't mean to interrogate you, so I hope it didn't come across that way - I was really genuinely curious as to why a dog would be x-rayed but then not certified). I think the fact that his dogs do work so many head of sheep per day is a testament to their physical health and ability, but that doesn't mean his dogs are exempt from issues. Although I certainly was not told of any big health issues, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. And being as Koolies are a generally very long lived breed, I bet hip or elbow issues could be accidentally chalked up to arthritis when the dog finally starts showing wear later on in age.

That said, if he were to join this forum (or any), he would be getting just as many questions as you are.

The questions being asked in this thread are not meant to single you out. If any breeder of any breed were to join this forum, they'd probably get the same questions. You I think just happened to get more because you do actually x-ray, but don't send them in to OFA which is not an answer people see very often. So it caused curiosity.

This thread has been rather civil from what I've seen (although I can see how you would feel pounced on). It's been much worse in the past with breeders. I don't get involved, but I've watched things play out and it was not nice. Other forums (like my Doberman one) are still much more rabid if a breeder were to post and then the other members found out that no health testing (or titling) was being done.

But either way, I hope one day if/when I decide to look into a C/Koolie again, more owners and breeders will be on the same page. And more dogs will be health tested and certified and more people will come together and strive to do better by the breed. Especially in North America where they are so few and far between. It'd be hard for one breeder (well, two I suppose...) to really contribute to the future of the breed on this continent I would think without some help, simply because the bulk population of C/Koolies and breeding dogs is in Australia.

ETA: Sorry! In all the time it took me to type that up I didn't realize the thread was still going on and kind of off that topic now..
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  #138  
Old 01-02-2013, 05:22 PM
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AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
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Also, sometimes people exaggerate about breeding requests. ie "it would be nice to breed Trav to a dog on this continent" and "I like Rumor" can be construed by someone as a breeding musing. Unless there was a direct request... Well...

I've mused breeding both of my dogs but to call that a commitment to breeding is outlandish.
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  #139  
Old 01-02-2013, 05:25 PM
avaloncoolies avaloncoolies is offline
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The quotes we got were for OFA & OVC, we asked for them 3 years ago....the quotes that is....have not looked into since, and no $$was not THE reason not to pursue but yes it did play a factor...and if others have been under fire for this before me then maybe this is just what I was asking....a place where if you breed you must be certified then i have to respect that clearly...and since i have posted a few picture threads and have gotten some but few short posts back and most, if really not all the attention has been on my lack of certification then maybe vandog is right and this is not Èmy playgroundÈ but rather Linds & Saraès and I will gladly pack up my toys and go play somewhere else.....thanks to those who have tried to welcome me and ask some lovely questions regarding history and breed stuff and to those that posted on my pics....
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  #140  
Old 01-02-2013, 05:28 PM
SaraB SaraB is offline
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Chaz isn't for everyone, however if you do stick around with an open mind you will see that there is so much to learn from the members here.

Again, writing this in hopes you will respond. Check your pm's.
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