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  #101  
Old 01-02-2013, 02:49 AM
JessLough JessLough is online now
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Originally Posted by Saeleofu View Post
But peaches are fuzzy.
Purple is definitely the best.
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  #102  
Old 01-02-2013, 02:53 AM
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Purple is definitely the best.
I am sure that you are wrong. Write me in PM to discuss.
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  #103  
Old 01-02-2013, 07:36 AM
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Shai Shai is offline
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Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
I just... don't understand why you wouldn't go ahead and do health clearances.

1. You seem to have a grasp of genetics and avoid merle to merle breeding presumably for health reasons. If you're concerned about the health of merle to merle, why not look into the other aspects of health. Yes you can get your vet to look at the dogs but why not have an official record kept? It would be a GREAT resource for the breed to have.

2. I don't buy the 'if it works, it must be sound' theory. I know of too many cases where health issues haven't prevented a dog from working. As a lesser example, my younger dog has luxating patellas. She's not ever had an issue or shown she's unsound yet. I am sure there are many dogs working and performing through such issues. I am sure people breed these dogs not knowing there is an issue.

3. Most sports people aren't going to buy dogs without health clearances. I am sure some will but most won't. For my next dog, it is possibly the most important thing since I've gotten more involved in sports. I've experienced having a dog with a great sound mind suited to a sport but having a structural issue. I don't want it again. You're missing out on some really great homes by not testing.

Health testing isn't everything. It's just a tool to use and see what we've really got going on in a breed. The way I see it the more tools we utilize, the better the chance we have to breed good, sound dogs.

So why are you opposed to doing this? It is an honest question because I just don't understand the reasoning.

I looked into koolies once about 5 years ago. It took me one post on here long before any koolies were on the forum before I started getting messages alluding to just some of the drama I've heard since. It's a mess.

I honestly love the sound of the breed. They seem very much up my alley (and I have a HIGH tolerance for vocal dogs having had Mia and three shelties). There's a lot about them that I like...they intrigue me immensely and seem like they might be a better fit than other herding breeds for me.... but there is too much about the breeders that I don't like. I hope that changes in the future.

I'm just trying to explain that there are a lot of people that will be turned away by the state of things right now.

My breed is very bad with health clearances too. But every dog tested is a small step in the right direction. It will take people willing to change the way things are done to make any kind of positive change for the breed.
^This is exactly where I stand as well. For most of us it has absolutely nothing to do with deciding one person's dogs are better than another's. We may be interested in the breed as a whole but are turned off by the lack of health testing/evaluation which is absolutely imperative to many of us for a future sport prospect. So finding someone who seems to be educated regarding merleXmerle and apparently does hip X-rays...but then doesn't have those Xrays evaluated or recorded publicly for the sake of helping to build the breed's health history database and promote making better decisions across the board...well it just really leaves me befuddled.

So I can't help but ask...Why?

So far your answers have been more or less -- well I don't do it so don't judge me because these other guys are worse. But the question remains...why?
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  #104  
Old 01-02-2013, 09:16 AM
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Aleron Aleron is offline
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Originally Posted by avaloncoolies View Post
I respect people wanting certification, it is their choice and I have nothing against it...I would be more inclined to say that your friend would be missing out on a amazingly well bred coolie for sports by letting that stand in her way, the same way we all coolie owners right now would be missing out if we had let that stop us...I find the right homes for my coolies regardless, or the right homes for my coolies find them regardless, fabulous homes that have done great things with them and continue to make a name for coolies in general...all i am asking is if modern ideals of breeding practices need to be let go of for this breed from time to time when it comes to other things then certifications (like merle to merle breeding, like keeping dogs on chains with barrels, like culling pups etc...) I deserve the same...I health test my dogs but do not certify, i work my dogs, i spend a huge amount of time raising our pups the right way, i screen homes like no other, i puppy test and match pups to home, i have a non breeding contract that allows your dog to be intact...key word is NON breeding...but do not sell on breeding contracts since my one and only one was bred at 6 months, then again at 8 months old.
Please dont throw me to the wolves because all i do not do is certify my dogs...i completly respect your choice to not want one of my dogs, but it certainly does not take away from our amazing dogs and what they are, what they can do, and how much i want to share them with everyone....my dogs not being certified does not make them any less wonderful then saras or lindseys dogs oarents and grandparents and shared greatgrandparents
I don't think I've "thrown you to the wolves" at all. I have repeatedly said it's your choice and I doubt anyone here will change your mind. I'm not in the market for a K/Coolie but if I were, at this point I could just wait for the chance to get one from one from the US, from health tested parents. I would certainly consider a puppy from you, if your dogs were health tested. Without the certification though or at least some "proof", I admit it seems a bit...shady from an outsider's perspective. Maybe I'm missing something though. Perhaps you have a written evaluation from an orthopedic specialist stating your dog's hips and elbows are normal? And the CERF form saying your dogs are normal eyed? As for my friend, she has ended up with two dysplastic performance dogs (not Koolies obviously) so health testing, as well as picking a breed with a lower risk is extremely important to her. I don't know that she is missing out by not getting a K/Coolie. They seem like really neat, fun dogs but certainly, there are lots of breeds just as capable of being good performance dogs. Breeds where health testing is the norm.

As it stands right now, it seems the serious dog people who are getting K/Coolies are the ones who absolutely want a K/Coolie more than anything else and are willing to take a chance on the unknown to have one. And it's great that you are able to find your puppies appropriate homes within that group of people. But don't kid yourself, for as many people that are willing to look past the health testing issue there's probably at least 5 who love the breed but aren't. Once puppies start to become available in the US from health tested parents, you may find people's willingness to look past that issue is going to greatly diminish. You may find yourself scrambling to catch up with the newbies who are the first K/Coolie breeders to fully test/certify their breeding dogs. Or you could just as easily become the first to do so yourself.

It doesn't matter to me, I'm not in the market for a K/Coolie puppy. I'm just offering an outsider's perspective, as someone's who's been involved in the dog world for what's getting to be a long time now. I'm not bashing you, throwing you to the wolves or anything else. What you do with your dogs is certainly your business and again, I don't think your mind will be changed. But it isn't reasonable to think health testing will always be something people will look past in the breed. It is right now only because people have no other choice.
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  #105  
Old 01-02-2013, 11:15 AM
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AllieMackie AllieMackie is offline
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Originally Posted by avaloncoolies View Post
I respect people wanting certification, it is their choice and I have nothing against it...I would be more inclined to say that your friend would be missing out on a amazingly well bred coolie for sports by letting that stand in her way, the same way we all coolie owners right now would be missing out if we had let that stop us...I find the right homes for my coolies regardless, or the right homes for my coolies find them regardless, fabulous homes that have done great things with them and continue to make a name for coolies in general...all i am asking is if modern ideals of breeding practices need to be let go of for this breed from time to time when it comes to other things then certifications (like merle to merle breeding, like keeping dogs on chains with barrels, like culling pups etc...) I deserve the same...I health test my dogs but do not certify, i work my dogs, i spend a huge amount of time raising our pups the right way, i screen homes like no other, i puppy test and match pups to home, i have a non breeding contract that allows your dog to be intact...key word is NON breeding...but do not sell on breeding contracts since my one and only one was bred at 6 months, then again at 8 months old.
Please dont throw me to the wolves because all i do not do is certify my dogs...i completly respect your choice to not want one of my dogs, but it certainly does not take away from our amazing dogs and what they are, what they can do, and how much i want to share them with everyone....my dogs not being certified does not make them any less wonderful then saras or lindseys dogs oarents and grandparents and shared greatgrandparents
Health testing is an oft-discussed issue amongst Chazzers, it's something a lot of us feel strongly about. I'm sure a number of people quietly (and maybe not so quietly) dislike that Sara and Linds have dogs from untested parents. Personally, I like that they themselves are doing testing to start the process in motion for their own potential breeding plans. It's a positive direction.

I have a feeling that their breeder would have many similar questions posed to him if he were to join Chaz. It isn't a witchhunt, many Chazzers are just genuinely curious. I haven't seen anyone in this thread get bashy or rude towards you, just a lot of honest questions.

Just my 2 cents! Your dogs are absolutely beautiful and based on knowing Remix, you produce really awesome dogs.
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  #106  
Old 01-02-2013, 11:54 AM
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AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllieMackie View Post
Health testing is an oft-discussed issue amongst Chazzers, it's something a lot of us feel strongly about. I'm sure a number of people quietly (and maybe not so quietly) dislike that Sara and Linds have dogs from untested parents. Personally, I like that they themselves are doing testing to start the process in motion for their own potential breeding plans. It's a positive direction.

I have a feeling that their breeder would have many similar questions posed to him if he were to join Chaz. It isn't a witchhunt, many Chazzers are just genuinely curious. I haven't seen anyone in this thread get bashy or rude towards you, just a lot of honest questions.

Just my 2 cents! Your dogs are absolutely beautiful and based on knowing Remix, you produce really awesome dogs.
I haven't read the whole thread since my last post so maybe this was covered but I do wonder if other Koolie or Coolie (pick one name people!) breeders on other lists get the same treatment. I wonder if the breeder who produced Traveler and the gang has been grilled and relatively cornered. I mean, have his buyers said these things to him? It seems he produces a lot of puppies for no one to be concerned yet, have any of them shown up with joint issues or is it just avalons? Have we taken in account that working a dog too hard as a pup, feeding it the wrong food, and injuring the pup can allow for callus' on the joints which will read as less than stellar?

In other words, I guess I hope Avalon isn't the only one getting the 20 questions all because she stumbled on this forum.

I do wonder why people choose not to health test when they're in this type of situation, is it a money thing? Is it fear that a dog may turn out not perfect? I will say, personally, I don't care if a dog is OFA or not, that is not to say I don't want health testing but I am open to other options. Also if a dog isn't perfect in the joints I want to know more about the dog and its mate, maybe there is something in that matching that makes the joints worth it. Basically, it's more complex than "Ex to Ex all the way, no exceptions" to me.

Does the Koolie have an (North) American breed club? Is this in the works?

I really do respect what Sara and Linds are starting, which I think many on the forum share in opinion, so anyone "against" these two has probably stumbled into the wrong bar. I have said time and again I would like a Traveler clone and Zinga and Didgie appear to be a great effort at it. In addition to being gorgeous dogs they seem to be wild and naughty but sweet dogs, I think that's an ideal pup in many ways. I also am impressed to see the intension for health testing and sporting goals. I would buy a Koolie from these girls.

I think this is a breed with great potential for "going viral" if you will so calm protection and honest education is essential. I would hope the breed, as a whole, can work together to create this ideal. I can see too much infighting truly damaging the chances of keeping a strong gene pool.


ETA, in my tradition I went and read the thread and some of this was covered so... continue on. I'm a parrot.
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Last edited by AdrianneIsabel; 01-02-2013 at 12:05 PM.
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  #107  
Old 01-02-2013, 12:08 PM
avaloncoolies avaloncoolies is offline
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I have not seen any other welcome threads looking like this one...so yes I feel a bit "blind sided"...if having certification is a pre requisite for being on this forum, like i asked before, then please just say so....I have no problem leaving you all to yourselves...why i do not certify? because I am a small business owner running a full time working ranch in Northern Canada, I breed coolies to share this wonderful breed with people in north america, not make any "statement" or fill some kind of designer sport breed marketing spot, if i ever do desire to focus on making my dogs a business and seriously want to target the sport dog world then i will have to do 2 things, certify my dogs and raise my puppy prices...as for all the weird posts regarding ice cream and purple and snow??? really this is looking kinda childish ....just sayin
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  #108  
Old 01-02-2013, 12:14 PM
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AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
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Nope, certification isn't a pre requisite of the forum but humor is and the icecream comments were teasing but not associated with interrogating you at all.
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  #109  
Old 01-02-2013, 12:57 PM
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And please for the record, Avalon has NEVER produced a dog with any hip issues, Akilis breeder has!! And Akili has been retired from breeding since 2011 having never produced any issues other then 2 cases of skin allergies (prompted early retirement) Never heard of a coolie in Aus. either having or having produced any HD problems, and none are certified....Akilis breeder as of right now is the only known to me case of HD in coolies...and thank you for asking if these questions are being asked to Travs breeder by his puppy buyers or if it is just me because i walked "in to the wrong bar"....i hope Vandog thought the teasing was funny, cause i know i didnt....was more condescending and childish from my point of view, but again i am the one under fire here so definatly hard to switch the comic on
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  #110  
Old 01-02-2013, 01:15 PM
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AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
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Understandable, whippet are not required nor expected to have hip clearances because the flaw simply does not exist in the breed. It would be like asking a breed without any cases of PRA to DNA screen for an occurrence or asking a breed, while the test may be nice it would be considered unneeded.

However, if it is showing prevalent in this breed than testing and certifying with one organization or another makes sense, for the betterment of the breed.
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