Hello from Canada!!

[Aleron]

Originally Posted by avaloncoolies

Breeding merle to merle is prominent in Aus. and only recently breeders have been introducing solids into their breeding program...funny enough richies first move in that direction was only a few years back and he chose Gunnahs dad Borahview Dipper for it...in the 7+ years since the split Koolie/Coolie breeders have been following different goals and not crossin lines and in my opinion has created a physical and temperement difference between the two breeds...(for ex:coolie=better off switch and not as loud(since yes my dogs do bark), lighter bone density, finer head...etc)...also a detail that some Koolie reg. with the Aus Koolie Club are from unknown lineage from pounds (kennel unrelated to linds, saras or ours) raising some red flags for me way back when i was looking into importing....

I'm having a hard time understanding how Coolies and Koolies can be totally separate breeds with the same foundation, bred for the same purpose same temperament and recent shared pedigrees. What is the advantage of pursuing them as separate breeds? It seems there is just typical variation in looks and temperament that can be found in different lines of any breed. But maybe I'm missing something?

FWIW Koolies on this forum have always been portrayed as having excellent off switches.

Originally Posted by avaloncoolies

I joined because I thought a different point of view could be offered....I have lines in common with sara and linds...have nothing against the blood lines just the breeding practices from the kennel owner...(culling pups, dogs on chains, losing pups from lack of care, merle to merle breeding, not puppy testing etc...) not ok for me to not certify but sure no worries with all that other stuff going on down under....we can look the other way for that...

I don't think anyone is asking you to agree with what the breeder of their dogs does but what he does has little to do with members of this forum. You seem to acknowledge there is merit in the line. I think the overall feeling on this forum about Koolies, from reading many, many discussions is that it is unfortunate that there isn't more health testing done in the breed. I know there's people on this forum who would probably be involved in the breed except that they won't buy dogs who aren't health tested. I have an agility friend who a Koolie would be perfect for but there is no way she will buy a puppy from dogs who don't have official health testing that she can look up.

If you go back through old threads, you'll also find that most people here having varying degrees of disagreement and discomfort concerning merle x merle. Perhaps these issues have not come up more on this thread because they have already been covered over and over on Chaz. And people do not look the other way on it. But people here also tend to be pretty accepting of other posters. On some boards, you would have been flamed from here to next week for breeding without health testing or not certifying your breeding dogs. As would Linds and Sara for buying puppies from merle x merle breedings. But really, that is what makes Chaz such a great forum. People can disagree but all out flaming and relentless personal attacks don't tend to happen. People on here who strongly oppose merle x merle breedings can still think the Traveler, Didgie and Zing are awesome dogs. They can still like Linds and Sara, even if they would have made different choices themselves.

As to the rest, I'm not saying it makes it fine or that I like it but I think there is a huge cultural difference between people posting on internet dog forums about their pet/sport dogs and an old rancher in Australia who values his dogs but who's dogs are and always have been first and foremost real working dogs. Sometimes when one wants a dog of a breed that is uncommon, one has to look at the bigger picture rather than get caught up on modern ideals. If most breeders aren't health testing (or some aren't and some are but can't provide proof), most breeders are working oriented and maybe don't have strong pet-type feelings about their dogs/puppies and merle to merle is extremely common what exactly is someone who's fallen in love with the breed supposed to do from the standpoint of modern breeding ideals? It seems to me, their options are pick the breeder who's dogs overall suit them the best and are most what they are looking for...or pick a different breed, maybe a breed which suits them less but in which modern ideals in terms of breeders are more established. It seems there are currently no breeders of Coolies or Koolies who are doing everything right in terms of modern thinking on what makes a breeder "ethical". Trying to decide who's breeding practices are worse than who's, even though everyone is admittedly not breeding to these modern ideals seems pointless. If people want the breed, they are going to have to be willing to let go of some of the modern ideals. I don't think it will always be that way but for now, it is what it is.

Regarding you having trouble placing puppies or not...as long as you are properly caring for your puppies until they go to the right home, it's not really anyone's concern on an internet forum as to how long you have them. Which is why there was not much, if any discussion in that direction. That said, as someone involved in performance sports it seems the breed has great potential as sport dogs. I can't help but think you might be missing out on some great opportunities for your puppies to be stars (good for you as a breeder and good for the breed as a whole) by being opposed to doing official health testing. I'm sure you have your reasons and that you feel it works for you and your dogs. And that's fine. But I know I could have sent a great home to you, if only your dogs had clearances. Instead, that person opted to get another uncommon herding breed in which health testing is the norm. I think there's a lot of homes like that.

[avaloncoolies]

I respect people wanting certification, it is their choice and I have nothing against it...I would be more inclined to say that your friend would be missing out on a amazingly well bred coolie for sports by letting that stand in her way, the same way we all coolie owners right now would be missing out if we had let that stop us...I find the right homes for my coolies regardless, or the right homes for my coolies find them regardless, fabulous homes that have done great things with them and continue to make a name for coolies in general...all i am asking is if modern ideals of breeding practices need to be let go of for this breed from time to time when it comes to other things then certifications (like merle to merle breeding, like keeping dogs on chains with barrels, like culling pups etc...) I deserve the same...I health test my dogs but do not certify, i work my dogs, i spend a huge amount of time raising our pups the right way, i screen homes like no other, i puppy test and match pups to home, i have a non breeding contract that allows your dog to be intact...key word is NON breeding...but do not sell on breeding contracts since my one and only one was bred at 6 months, then again at 8 months old.
Please dont throw me to the wolves because all i do not do is certify my dogs...i completly respect your choice to not want one of my dogs, but it certainly does not take away from our amazing dogs and what they are, what they can do, and how much i want to share them with everyone....my dogs not being certified does not make them any less wonderful then saras or lindseys dogs oarents and grandparents and shared greatgrandparents

[Laurelin]

I just... don't understand why you wouldn't go ahead and do health clearances.

1. You seem to have a grasp of genetics and avoid merle to merle breeding presumably for health reasons. If you're concerned about the health of merle to merle, why not look into the other aspects of health. Yes you can get your vet to look at the dogs but why not have an official record kept? It would be a GREAT resource for the breed to have.

2. I don't buy the 'if it works, it must be sound' theory. I know of too many cases where health issues haven't prevented a dog from working. As a lesser example, my younger dog has luxating patellas. She's not ever had an issue or shown she's unsound yet. I am sure there are many dogs working and performing through such issues. I am sure people breed these dogs not knowing there is an issue.

3. Most sports people aren't going to buy dogs without health clearances. I am sure some will but most won't. For my next dog, it is possibly the most important thing since I've gotten more involved in sports. I've experienced having a dog with a great sound mind suited to a sport but having a structural issue. I don't want it again. You're missing out on some really great homes by not testing.

Health testing isn't everything. It's just a tool to use and see what we've really got going on in a breed. The way I see it the more tools we utilize, the better the chance we have to breed good, sound dogs.

So why are you opposed to doing this? It is an honest question because I just don't understand the reasoning.

I looked into koolies once about 5 years ago. It took me one post on here long before any koolies were on the forum before I started getting messages alluding to just some of the drama I've heard since. It's a mess.

I honestly love the sound of the breed. They seem very much up my alley (and I have a HIGH tolerance for vocal dogs having had Mia and three shelties). There's a lot about them that I like...they intrigue me immensely and seem like they might be a better fit than other herding breeds for me.... but there is too much about the breeders that I don't like. I hope that changes in the future.

I'm just trying to explain that there are a lot of people that will be turned away by the state of things right now.

My breed is very bad with health clearances too. But every dog tested is a small step in the right direction. It will take people willing to change the way things are done to make any kind of positive change for the breed.

[JessLough]

Originally Posted by vandog

Right. Apparently quiet herding dogs are a novelty and all of the ones I've met are just strange Especially my own two, which live in a apartment.

As for the breed fighting, yes it's bad, but that behavior exists in all breeds. It is much more apparent in some breeds than others. Do I agree that health testing needs to become a priority? Absolutely! But the ethics that occur in other decisions regarding this breed that are just as bad, if not worse.

*Reads Quote*
*Reads Your Reply*
*Reads Quote*

*Scratches Head*

Um... what? Where did I..... what? What? I... what? Where did I even say that.

I hate your favourite kind of ice cream. Since apparently we just started saying random crap to quotes now.

[Saeleofu]

I hate your favourite kind of ice cream.

I agree, shoes are definitely stupid.



(I'm glad I wasn't the only one thoroughly confused.)

[CharlieDog]

Originally Posted by Saeleofu

I agree, shoes are definitely stupid.



(I'm glad I wasn't the only one thoroughly confused.)

Absolutely.

And tea with milk sounds terrible. But what do I know.

[Saeleofu]

Originally Posted by CharlieDog

Absolutely.

And tea with milk sounds terrible. But what do I know.

Maybe it's snow that fell before? That's silly. It's not like snow is part of a water cycle, where it melts, evaporates, and falls again. Duh.

[JessLough]

Originally Posted by Saeleofu

Maybe it's snow that fell before? That's silly. It's not like snow is part of a water cycle, where it melts, evaporates, and falls again. Duh.

Easy. Put your finger on it and push up.

[CharlieDog]

Originally Posted by JessLough

Easy. Put your finger on it and push up.

Well, you can also pack a prolapse in sugar.

[Saeleofu]

Originally Posted by CharlieDog

Well, you can also pack a prolapse in sugar.

But peaches are fuzzy.