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  #81  
Old 01-01-2013, 10:54 AM
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sassafras sassafras is offline
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Questions posed in a reasonable, thoughtful manner are not "attacks." And if one is confident in their practices, resorting to insults, disparaging personal attacks, and projections of motive in response to those questions shouldn't be necessary and don't really do much to address answering the questions. And kind of make one look bad. Just sayin'.
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  #82  
Old 01-01-2013, 11:05 AM
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Linds Linds is offline
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There is always going to be fighting, sadly it seems unavoidable. But luckily while the vocal few might at the surface make things look bad if you dig a little deeper there is a tight network of people all doing what they do best, loving their dogs. And these dogs make it easy to do that.

I don't think anyone no matter what side of the "line" they are on has anything but the breeds best interest at heart at the end of the day. Passion makes it hard to think straight sometimes and in a breed old yet new with things starting to change it's bound to get mess especially when you throw the internet ontop of it.

But, I've mad some amazing friends, learned from people whether I liked them or not, had my views and opinions changed and tested and fell in love with a breed I will never be without. No matter what these dogs make it worth it even when I feel like crying because of that hate that can happen. Nothing, no matter what, is going to change how much I adore this breed.

But, that doesn't mean I don't hope that someday people can try to put aside differences, past assumptions and work together.

Shawn, you are going to breed as you are going to breed and I doubt anything said here will make you change your mind. I do hope maybe some of the health testing stories or points might stay with you (especially the ones made by Nina and adojrts) but if they don't then oh well. I don't think you're a bad breeder, just not someone I would choose to go to. But I think you breed fabulous dogs, I think you have a large number of happy puppy buyers and loyal ones to boot.

I'm still not entirely sure why you hate me so much or what questions you think I avoid answering since I believe I'm pretty candid about most things. But, if you would ever like to bridge the gap between us I am more than open to that. I'm always here to answer direct questions that you have for me. I think a lot of what you think about Sara and I is based very much on misunderstandings and things not said or meant and I do think that some honest, straightforward conversation would do a world of good for everyone.

But regardless if that happens or not I still wish you and your dogs well and hope you continue on breeding dogs that make people as happy as they do now.
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  #83  
Old 01-01-2013, 11:38 AM
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Aleron Aleron is offline
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Avalon... I don't know you or your dogs. I do think it's pretty neat you do so much with them. It's obvious you love the breed and have strong opinions about what should or shouldn't be done with them. I think that's pretty common among breeders of any breed I do wonder what your hopes are for Koolies...or I guess Coolies would be? Are you breeding basically just for yourself to have more dogs or do you hope to establish K/Coolies as a breed in North America?

If you are just breeding for yourself then I suppose it doesn't matter what you do, as you don't have any big goals or plans for your dogs. And that is fine. I think that's the case with most actual working dogs - people breed them for themselves to get another generation of working dogs. If however, your hopes are to work towards establishing the breed in North America it seems that isn't something you can do on your own. And it seems best to try to work together with others in North America who have similar goals, even if you have differing opinions about the finer details. I really don't know what your main complaint is with Linds and Sara but it seems it's mostly personal? Having to do with who they bought their dogs from? Their age? That they want to be breeders? Didn't you say your dogs have that breeder's dogs in their pedigree? Aren't they all Koolies...or Coolies? Doesn't everyone have to start somewhere? No matter how experienced you are in a breed, you had your first dog of that breed once and at a point, you decided you might like to pursue breeding. I think we all start off thinking about breeding and being some what naive about it, at least in some aspects. Certainly, I'd have made different choices early on if I knew then what I do know. But those who are serious about it stick with it, become well versed in the breed, breeding, health, reproduction and all things dog. They become the future of their breed.

It's hard to establish a "new" breed in a country when there is so much drama and bad feelings from the get go. That does nothing but hurt the breed and turn people off of them. Don't kid yourself, it is not like this in all breeds. Sure you have personal differences, people might argue with each other but it seems you can't get more than a handful of K/Coolie people together on an internet forum or on FB without them pointing fingers at what the others are doing wrong...or possibly even thinking about doing wrong. Instead of spending so much time trying to blow the whistle on what fellow K/Coolie owners/breeders/would be breeders are doing or aren't doing or might do in the future, why not put aside the personal issues and work together constructively? Create a database for people to enter their dogs into with pedigrees, photos and all known health info (something like this: http://baza.belgi.pl/modules/animal/...&search=1&st=0). Create an email list or forum or FB group for all K/Coolie people, everywhere that is moderated and does not tolerate fighting. Focus on talking about your dogs instead Create an environment that is open and welcoming to newbies, allows important information such as health, temperament and structure to be discussed freely and openly but without fighting. And start a parent club. I know the K/Coolie people don't want kennel club registration at this point but having a parent club is going to be important for other reasons. Check out non-kennel club related parents clubs like JRTCA and ASCA. Parent clubs are a non-biased (hopefully) source of info for newbies, set the guidelines for breeding and promote the breed in a responsible manner. Through a parent club, pedigrees can be kept, health info tracked and registration can be given for purposes of long term accurate records in the breed.

Not that it's my place to tell K/Coolie people what to do, I'm not involved in the breed. It really is for the K/Coolie people in this country to decide what direction to take the breed. It just seems silly to spend so much time and energy on amongst yourselves when everyone can be working together for common goals. Worry about your differences after the breed is well established in the country, you have a registration system and a parent club in place. Maybe in the future everyone will get to a point where they are able to work together for the good of the breed, despite differences in opinion. If not, I just don't see this breed getting very far in North America.

Avalon...I don't think anyone wants to see you banned but I do think most here, like myself hope that this umm...K/Coolie Drama isn't going to be a regular problem in any thread the breed is mentioned. Disagreement is one thing, personal attacks are another. On the same token, hopefully your lack of official health testing doesn't become a repeatedly hashed out issue. It seems you've said your peace about it and I doubt anyone on this forum will change your mind in terms of what you do. I do hope you joined this forum because you truly wanted to join in on the discussions here. It's a great forum and we discuss so much more than just the latest in K/Coolie Drama There's people here with all different breeds, pet owners, trainers, competitors, breeders, rescuers - it's just a great diverse and supportive group of dog people. I'm not sure I have seen you post anywhere but here and the meet up section so far but I certainly may have missed it. Hopefully you will join in and we'll get to know more about you and your dogs.
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  #84  
Old 01-01-2013, 05:35 PM
avaloncoolies avaloncoolies is offline
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Breeding merle to merle is prominent in Aus. and only recently breeders have been introducing solids into their breeding program...funny enough richies first move in that direction was only a few years back and he chose Gunnahs dad Borahview Dipper for it...in the 7+ years since the split Koolie/Coolie breeders have been following different goals and not crossin lines and in my opinion has created a physical and temperement difference between the two breeds...(for ex:coolie=better off switch and not as loud(since yes my dogs do bark), lighter bone density, finer head...etc)...also a detail that some Koolie reg. with the Aus Koolie Club are from unknown lineage from pounds (kennel unrelated to linds, saras or ours) raising some red flags for me way back when i was looking into importing....
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  #85  
Old 01-01-2013, 05:43 PM
avaloncoolies avaloncoolies is offline
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I joined because I thought a different point of view could be offered....I have lines in common with sara and linds...have nothing against the blood lines just the breeding practices from the kennel owner...(culling pups, dogs on chains, losing pups from lack of care, merle to merle breeding, not puppy testing etc...) not ok for me to not certify but sure no worries with all that other stuff going on down under....we can look the other way for that...
As to hip dysplasia in my lines.....i no longer breed my lines from USA...for many different reasons, including the discovery of problems in lines related to her lines ... lots of other reasons that i will not discuss on here but having said that, her hips have been xrayed and have been cleared by my vet...
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  #86  
Old 01-01-2013, 05:50 PM
avaloncoolies avaloncoolies is offline
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Breed history....sad to say you do know little....they were not imported from germany....
In early 1878 approx...when Aus. was importing large flocks of sheep from Germany, England, France, and Spain...each flock came with a Shepherd and his dogs....some English sheep dogs from England (BC's, smooth collies, Smithfields) some German Tigers, German Shepherds etc...from Germany, some can speculate that Carea Leones from Spain were brought in \as well (merle breed from spain)....all of these flocks, shepherds and dogs came into Aus and began breeding (sheep, dogs, and humans of course lol)...Now a perticular breed started to stand out, mainly used by the German Settlers in Aus, whoi were breeding amongst each other...the German Coolie
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  #87  
Old 01-01-2013, 05:54 PM
avaloncoolies avaloncoolies is offline
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And then yes in 2005 some people sat around a table and wanted to change the name from German Coolie to Aus.Koolie...
1.to reflect the aus.origin (some could argue to jump on the aussie breed fad train that started around that same time)
2.to steer clear of the derogatory term Coolie with a c, used for imigrant workers (approp. name for imigrant breed dogs for the time, logical name for them to come up with)
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  #88  
Old 01-01-2013, 05:55 PM
avaloncoolies avaloncoolies is offline
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It only takes 5 generations to permanently change breed traits, caracteristics and temperements (approx. 5) so logically since the split there are now some obvious differences between them other then just the name
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  #89  
Old 01-01-2013, 06:05 PM
avaloncoolies avaloncoolies is offline
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I will leave it at... there are other sides to the Coolie breed then what has been made available here on this perticular forum...hopefully we can all get over the drama so we can discover all the facets and not allow some people to blind everyone with my lack of certification on my dogs...if anything people can discover other wonderful breeders in |Aus. that have great breeding practices, still no certifications there either but wonderful breeders with great things to offer
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  #90  
Old 01-01-2013, 06:16 PM
avaloncoolies avaloncoolies is offline
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And thank you Vandog for pointing out the difference between "having trouble placing pups" and being careful as to where they are being placed...my pups are better off with me then in the wrong hands...i wont just put anyone on a plane to anyone just because they can paypal me money...how is that sa bad thing? how am i not to feel attacked when you say things like that? how can i feel like bridges are trying to be built?
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