Herding or working dog?

[staffanatic]

I know of one malinois rescue in this area, so if my ex takes the cattle dog, i'll be shootin' them an email.

Heck, the ex was more high maintenance than all my dogs put together, so maybe replacing him with a malinois foster is an even trade lol

[AdrianneIsabel]

Originally Posted by staffanatic

I know of one malinois rescue in this area, so if my ex takes the cattle dog, i'll be shootin' them an email.

Heck, the ex was more high maintenance than all my dogs put together, so maybe replacing him with a malinois foster is an even trade lol

Hahaha sounds like a great plan.

[Aleron]

Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel

I recommend Stans breeder and also Aeri/Panzer/Quarrels breeder as well (for more edge, bred more for bitework).

I didn't realize Quarrel was from the same breeder (litter?) as Pan and Aeri.

Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel

So... There it is. I know I spoke to you about it but he is a valid concern, as is Harry, whom you've also met, when looking into the breed. Sometimes just research helps, sometimes you take a chance and you make a choice. Mostly if the common edge and wired energy is a concern I would encourage looking into a breeder focusing on show/soft sports and not bitework, or I would look elsewhere.

Show/performance Mals also have...umm...social issues. My friend's Clover is from a show/herding/performance breeder and she's very sharp, pretty much "no touch" when it comes to strangers. Her and Roust are fairly similar in their anti-social behavior. A FB friend of mine has a show bred Mal and while she's turned into a pretty nice adult, she bit multiple people as a younger dog because she didn't want to be touched. I have known sharp, reactive, overly guardy dogs of all varieties of Belgians and from all different lines. Care really much be taken in finding the right breeder/puppy regardless of lines.

The working Mal community is very different from the AKC Belgian community. I think a lot of the AKC community is a bit more forthcoming with information about health/temperament than a lot of working community. It seems a lot of people involved in working Mals consider the dogs a business and their approach to breeding and selling seems reflects that. The number of Mals in ABMC rescue from working pedigrees and not far removed from known breeders/dogs is just...sad. I'm not saying all working Mal breeders are like that but so far, most I have talked to seem to have varying degrees of the "breeding dogs as business" mindset. Some of those, I'd probably still buy a dog from but I'd do so because I think the dogs are nice and not because I think the breeder is stellar in terms of ethics and practices.

[Red Chrome]

I have met a few nice Mals that run agility. Very stable socially acceptable dogs.

I will say, GSD fights are NASTY. I've seen some redirect when being separated. They can br worse to separate IME than some Bulldog type dogs.

[AdrianneIsabel]

Yup Q is from Stephanie but not the same litter.

I sometimes think I over share or my dog is just way more quirky than others. We love him and he is a joy to watch work because you just cannot shut him down, ever, but his day to day life is unquestionably difficult.

Sloan is honestly a pretty easy malinois. She's dangerous and has literally gone through two windows as well as pinned more than one person and was target trained to the sleeve because she preferred stomach/face bites. However, she can greet anyone, tolerate most any dogs, and although she's cautious she is confident in new locations. It doesn't need to be said that in many ways we think she's the perfect dog but we still see some faults, for example we wanted to breed to Q, before the move, to add a bit more social confidence, she's safe but cautious and sometimes cautious looks nervous on the flip side Q lacks some of the desired edge, he's a very play driven dog in Bitework but he's still young so the verdict is still out.

Social stability, IMO, is extremely complicated for this breed.

[crazedACD]

This might be kind of a dumb question, but isn't a Belgian a Belgian a Belgian? Any Belgian combo can throw any Belgian..mal, terv, groenendael, correct? Sooo..why do Mals have such a (cough) reputation compared to tervs and groenendaels? The herding trainer I visited bred Tervs.. they didn't seem nearly as wired, or as high energy as most mals I have known. I haven't interacted with a lot of tervs, but those I've seen have been reserved and relaxed..the mals, not at all.

Originally Posted by Aleron

I really wish it wasn't more of a concern in GSDs than in the average dog. But well, in your examples you said nearly half of Judge's breeder's personal dogs are SSA, one of the dogs mentioned in this thread was rehomed due to SSA, one of my 3 GSDs was SSA, a GSD breeder friend of mine has had several SSA dogs. Just in this small sampling of dogs you and I know personally or have known, there's at least 10 dogs who have displayed SSA. Dogs owned by knowledge dog people. If you hang out on the GSD forum, it's not at all uncommon for people to post asking for help with their same sex dogs who have started fighting. I'm sure we both know many more than that though. Know how many Goldens I can think of off the top of my head with SSA? None. Poodles? None. Collies? None. And very often when I hear of SSA in breeds like that, it's like what you're saying with the 2 Sammy bitches - two bitches who just hate each other but are good with all other dogs. Or males who are jerks but not really out for blood. Now Dobermans? Have known quite a few SSA ones and I don't even know a lot. Rotties? Yep. And obviously GSDs. That would point towards it being more of a concern in some breeds than it is in others. I'm not saying that GSDs are always or almost always SSA. Some are and some aren't. And some who aren't would be if exposed to the right triggers. I do not think that it generally has to be with "dominance" or "leadership" issues with the owner. SSA should never come as a surprise in the breed. Which is why I haven't gotten another one.

I really agree. I always think of this video I saw where a whole heap of Goldens (maybe like 30-50) were going for a walk or something, off leash, they all ran down this hill together and came back together. There's another girl that had like 15 Border Collies in one car, brought them to a park to play. You don't see this with GSDs or Rotties.

Casey was reactive but not SSA. Well, not in the household, more 'naturally dominant' type breed females initially she had a problem with. She didn't get along with my friend's mature female dobie. She didn't out and out fight though. I don't think a lot of GSDs are dog park material and they are a bit socially awkward. I have heard of a lot of interhousehold aggression with GSDs though, met a number of DA individuals. My friend has a European bred Schutz trained female that is far too intense to be trusted with other dogs.

It's been about a year now that Romeo has been very iffy with Soldier..so he was 5ish before they decided to hate each other although they have always fought infrequently. They can walk by each other but can't be allowed to 'meet' or they start posturing and will fight. Romeo is also "over stimulation aggressive", if everyone starts barking and running to the door he might spat with one of the other boys. His girls though can take something out of his mouth or do anything to him, and he is great. I have no concern with them.

Originally Posted by staffanatic

As for my pack, i have a 12 year old female boston, a 10 year old female amstaf, a 1.5 year old male ACD (my ex has mentioned taking him when he moves out, but we'll see) and a 10 month old female amstaf. Everyone gets along and no one is left unsupervised (especially together) ever.

SSA is also a concern with the ACD.

[AdrianneIsabel]

Originally Posted by crazedACD

This might be kind of a dumb question, but isn't a Belgian a Belgian a Belgian? Any Belgian combo can throw any Belgian..mal, terv, groenendael, correct? Sooo..why do Mals have such a (cough) reputation compared to tervs and groenendaels? The herding trainer I visited bred Tervs.. they didn't seem nearly as wired, or as high energy as most mals I have known. I haven't interacted with a lot of tervs, but those I've seen have been reserved and relaxed..the mals, not at all.
.

Because in many places we don't breed Malinois with other coats as much as standards allow, so no a malinois is not always a terv and the like. Also, balance, which is so very debated as is, isn't the main goal for many breeders, super high end working machine is the goal, house manners are not an issue and because you can train many social issues into control that is not always an issue either. This isn't always true of course but it is common.

Backup was bred and sold with sport/work in mind while being a balanced (rather modern) concept of a dog to be a pet in addition to being a sport or work extraordinaire was not the goal. This breeding turned out some fantastic working dogs which are prized in police work and bitesports, etc. However, I've said it before but his breeder laughed at me when I said he would be a house pet. I thought I would show her. Thus far, she wins the last laugh.

Honestly I tell people regularly as a rule Malinois do not make good pets, not even to active homes, they can and I have met some social ones and also some very easy going ones (especially from Mexico) but I do not recommend them to people expecting a pet by the most commonly understood ideals(evaluated by my clientele).

[Panzerotti]

Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel

Honestly I tell people regularly as a rule Malinois do not make good pets, not even to active homes, they can and I have met some social ones and also some very easy going ones (especially from Mexico) but I do not recommend them to people expecting a pet by the most commonly understood ideals(evaluated by my clientele).

I agree with everything Adrianne and Aleron have said here. I love Pan, but she is nuts, and is a total non-social dog. You never know what you'll end up with when it comes to Mals.... looking at her breeding, her sire and dam are both SchH 3 dogs, both seemingly social and relatively easy going. Yesterday my father-in-law came over for a second so we took the dogs out to go see him. Nathan had gone out first with Solo and I followed a few minutes later with Pan. Pan *knows* this man, but upon walking outside of our apt building door and seeing a "strange" man, her knee-jerk reaction was to freak the f*** out. I then put her in a sit stay beside me, but the flip had switched in her brain, and there was no way he could have greeted her or tried to touch her without getting bit.

Sure, there are a lot of social, trust-worthy Mals out there, but there also a lot of nervy, sharp ones that can be a real challenge to live with if you're not prepared to do a *lot* of training and managing.

[AdrianneIsabel]

Backup sounded off on Denis in the kitchen the other day, he stopped when he realized it was him but he remained on edge the rest of the evening. I know how that goes.

[smeagle]

I don't agree you don't know what you are getting when you get a Mal. I think knowing the lines are about more than saying there was a SchH titled dog here and there. I also think from my experience a dog is ultimately a product of its genetics and genetics are there from day one. There are lots of nervous high drive Mals out there which isn't a good combination and IMO not what the breed should be like. High drive is useless combined with weak nerves. I agree they really wouldn't make good pets for most people - but a good Mal is an exceptional dog IMO!

ETA: I think all dogs require management to some degree but obviously when living with a high drive WL dog appropriate management is so important. It's something you are either happy to live with or you aren't.