Herding or working dog?

[Red Chrome]

Originally Posted by Aleron

Except that she doesn't Seriously, if Jora never lived with other bitches I would have never, ever thought she would have a problem. She was fine with non-household bitches and not even DR. When I got another bitch and GSD people started warning me that there could be issues down the road keeping two same sex and especially same sex, close in age bitches together I thought they were a bit paranoid. Besides, my two bitches were BFFs! And of course they were raised well, trained properly and well socialized. I didn't think that would ever be an issue for me and my dogs. People who have those problems must have really aggressive dogs or just not manage them well. Now I know better.

I'm sorry you had that experience. SSA is bad when dogs have it.

Originally Posted by Aleron

Everyone's entitled to their opinions of course. I have to say that I do wonder why you would buy from a breeder who you felt couldn't properly train and manage their dogs? And who's dogs (3 out of 8) may have unstable temperaments?

I don't feel she can't properly manage and train her dogs. Nor do the 3 that are SSA have unstable temperaments. She got them when they were older, ALL of them were over a year old when she got them and the 3 came from kennel situations. So, in her case, it was poor training before they got to her.

Originally Posted by Aleron

Do you feel APBTs also fight due to poor leadership? Or that Foxhounds get along so well in huge groups because they are so well trained and managed?

Some, yes. All of them, no. It truly depends on the dog, lines and breeder.

Originally Posted by Aleron

It is really oversimplified to say the only reasons people would have SSA issues are lack of leadership and/or unstable temperament.

I didn't say that.

Originally Posted by Aleron

I really wish it wasn't more of a concern in GSDs than in the average dog. But well, in your examples you said nearly half of Judge's breeder's personal dogs are SSA, one of the dogs mentioned in this thread was rehomed due to SSA, one of my 3 GSDs was SSA, a GSD breeder friend of mine has had several SSA dogs. Just in this small sampling of dogs you and I know personally or have known, there's at least 10 dogs who have displayed SSA. Dogs owned by knowledge dog people. If you hang out on the GSD forum, it's not at all uncommon for people to post asking for help with their same sex dogs who have started fighting. I'm sure we both know many more than that though. Know how many Goldens I can think of off the top of my head with SSA? None. Poodles? None. Collies? None. And very often when I hear of SSA in breeds like that, it's like what you're saying with the 2 Sammy bitches - two bitches who just hate each other but are good with all other dogs. Or males who are jerks but not really out for blood. Now Dobermans? Have known quite a few SSA ones and I don't even know a lot. Rotties? Yep. And obviously GSDs. That would point towards it being more of a concern in some breeds than it is in others. I'm not saying that GSDs are always or almost always SSA. Some are and some aren't. And some who aren't would be if exposed to the right triggers. I do not think that it generally has to be with "dominance" or "leadership" issues with the owner. SSA should never come as a surprise in the breed. Which is why I haven't gotten another one.

One interesting thing I have noticed in GSDs I have known well is that SSA bitches are often really good with their daughters and granddaughters, providing they have always been together. I'm not sure that a leadership issue between dog and owner would cause a dog to want to eliminate unrelated bitches but favor those genetically related to them? SSA in GSDs is pretty complicated.

I truly believe it is an individual dog thing as well as certain lines etc. I do not think it is a concern in GSDs more than any other breed. I guess I've been lucky so far.

[Aleron]

Originally Posted by Red Chrome

I truly believe it is an individual dog thing as well as certain lines etc. I do not think it is a concern in GSDs more than any other breed. I guess I've been lucky so far.

You really don't feel you're any more likely to get a SSA GSD than say a Golden?

I'd say you have been lucky and of course, I hope your luck continues But really, it's not all just about leadership or unstable dogs. Like I said, with GSDs SSA is complicated.

[Red Chrome]

I have seen some pretty nasty Goldens. BUT I have to agree, a SSA GSD is more common than a Golden.

I think I got an exceptional dog, especially for an intact male. Honestly, I'll probably never get another one like him.

[staffanatic]

All of this is very good to know. i'm so glad i posted this question.

Nikki, do you feel that Belgians (let's say Malinois) are as prone to SSA as GSDs? I do like the black dogs, but the few i've met have been a bit more nervy than i like. They seemed very reactive and suspicious. Neither of which are traits i am looking for. And the Mals i've known are literally all over the place.

As for my pack, i have a 12 year old female boston, a 10 year old female amstaf, a 1.5 year old male ACD (my ex has mentioned taking him when he moves out, but we'll see) and a 10 month old female amstaf. Everyone gets along and no one is left unsupervised (especially together) ever.

Thanks again everyone for the dialog. And keep it coming! i won't be actively looking for anything for a few years, so i kinda have all the time in the world!

[Flyinsbt]

Originally Posted by Aleron

One interesting thing I have noticed in GSDs I have known well is that SSA bitches are often really good with their daughters and granddaughters, providing they have always been together.

I was told years ago, by people with breeds not known for dog aggression, that mother & daughter bitches tended to not get along. With my Staffords, I never had that problem. Tully matured into a bitch who didn't like many other Stafford bitches, but never had an issue with Tess, her daughter. Tess, who is uncomfortable with most dogs she doesn't live with, is still totally comfortable with her daughter Eva, who doesn't live with us, and they only see each other once in a while. We can have the 2 of them out, playing with one ball, and it's perfectly safe. Even if they jump for the ball, and accidentally land on each other.

Go figure.

[Aleron]

Originally Posted by staffanatic

All of this is very good to know. i'm so glad i posted this question.

Nikki, do you feel that Belgians (let's say Malinois) are as prone to SSA as GSDs? I do like the black dogs, but the few i've met have been a bit more nervy than i like. They seemed very reactive and suspicious. Neither of which are traits i am looking for. And the Mals i've known are literally all over the place.

IME Belgians are not nearly as prone to the sort of serious SSA that is seen in GSDs. Belgian bitches can be snarky and the males tend to be manly but most don't have the desire to do serious damage the way the GSDs do. They also don't seem to hold grudges the same way, they can get into a scuffle have a time out and then go outside together. My GSDs...even the ones who weren't really SSA were not like that. Lexi my Amline GSD was really good with everyone but Jora (who was the SSA). However, Lexi was no more capable of being around Jora after the fights started than Jora was capable of being around her. Jora initiated the war between them but after that it was on. They were really bad when they accidentally got together because they would just immediately go at each other. No posturing, no time to quick grab one of them, no time to think. They latched on to each other's head or neck and that was it. Shaking, flipping, rolling and nearly impossible to get them to let go of each other. I really needed a break stick but didn't know about such things at the time. And those were fights involving one dog who wasn't even really dog aggressive, who lived peacefully with the other bitches of the house.

That isn't to say I haven't known of SSA Belgians. It can happen in any breed but IME it's not nearly as common in them. And when they do fight it usually is not with the intensity the GSDs tend to have. Which is a big reason I have Belgians now actually.

In terms of temperament and which variety to get, they are really all over the place. Some Belgians are very suspicious and nervy, some don't like to be touched by strangers, some are really sharp, some are extremely guardy. But some are much more...reasonable too. I have had only Black Dogs until taking Roust in and within my Black Dogs I have had a wide range of temperaments from dogs that really needed experienced, understanding owners to dogs who were really fun and easy. Their drive levels differ too but the drive level isn't generally what makes them more difficult, it's the other stuff. Your best bet is to look for the right breeder rather than focus on the variety. You can also find some really nice Mals through ABMC, even puppies are not uncommon.

And FWIW I met two of Stan's brothers and they were both really, really nice boys. Social, happy dogs A lot of my Belgian friends seem to like his breeder's dogs, so if you want a dog like Stan...his breeder might be a good place to start looking.

[Aleron]

Originally Posted by Flyinsbt

I was told years ago, by people with breeds not known for dog aggression, that mother & daughter bitches tended to not get along. With my Staffords, I never had that problem. Tully matured into a bitch who didn't like many other Stafford bitches, but never had an issue with Tess, her daughter. Tess, who is uncomfortable with most dogs she doesn't live with, is still totally comfortable with her daughter Eva, who doesn't live with us, and they only see each other once in a while. We can have the 2 of them out, playing with one ball, and it's perfectly safe. Even if they jump for the ball, and accidentally land on each other.

Go figure.

That is interesting! I always heard mother-daughter combos were bad too but in the breeds I've been involved with, they seem to work really well.

[Emily]

Originally Posted by Aleron

You can also find some really nice Mals through ABMC...

I happen to have one that needs a permanent home. JUST SAYIN', OP!

Also, you could consider fostering for AMBC if you want to try out a Belgian. Sadly for Mals, there are a ton in rescue, and a great many are not more than one generation removed (if that) from well-known working/sport lines.

[AdrianneIsabel]

Originally Posted by Aleron

In terms of temperament and which variety to get, they are really all over the place. Some Belgians are very suspicious and nervy, some don't like to be touched by strangers, some are really sharp, some are extremely guardy. But some are much more...reasonable too. I have had only Black Dogs until taking Roust in and within my Black Dogs I have had a wide range of temperaments from dogs that really needed experienced, understanding owners to dogs who were really fun and easy. Their drive levels differ too but the drive level isn't generally what makes them more difficult, it's the other stuff. Your best bet is to look for the right breeder rather than focus on the variety. You can also find some really nice Mals through ABMC, even puppies are not uncommon.

And FWIW I met two of Stan's brothers and they were both really, really nice boys. Social, happy dogs A lot of my Belgian friends seem to like his breeder's dogs, so if you want a dog like Stan...his breeder might be a good place to start looking.

I recommend Stans breeder and also Aeri/Panzer/Quarrels breeder as well (for more edge, bred more for bitework).

Honestly I look at parents more than anything and more the temperament than the titles now. Backups mom is amazing. She wins everything, she's stable, versatile, and fun. His dad is an a great working dog with a novice handler. I was warned that people either love him or hate him depending on what they want from a dog, I could see that with Backup. He's very great dog on the field, he's a never quit worker and nothing scares him in drive. He is however a worrier when out of drive and he doesn't like being touched a lot, I've used cats for an example. The cat that seeks petting but picks a moment they've had enough or you touched a spot they dislike and its attack time. He's also always wired and never stops moving for more than a few minutes, whether it is pacing or chewing or rubbing on things. I'm not sure that he was ever born to be a pet in the lifestyle we keep and while he would probably do better in a lifestyle as a working dog only we couldn't bare to think of him bouncing around handler to handler and becoming less and less associated with humans. He is wickedly devoted to Denis and me even when he can only handle touching within reason.

So... There it is. I know I spoke to you about it but he is a valid concern, as is Harry, whom you've also met, when looking into the breed. Sometimes just research helps, sometimes you take a chance and you make a choice. Mostly if the common edge and wired energy is a concern I would encourage looking into a breeder focusing on show/soft sports and not bitework, or I would look elsewhere.

[AdrianneIsabel]

Originally Posted by Emily

I happen to have one that needs a permanent home. JUST SAYIN', OP!

Also, you could consider fostering for AMBC if you want to try out a Belgian. Sadly for Mals, there are a ton in rescue, and a great many are not more than one generation removed (if that) from well-known working/sport lines.

I totally agree, I recommend fostering to explore any breed especially this one!
We did and while Backup is far more dog than they were it still gave us a taste of what we were getting into.