Herding or working dog?

[Red Chrome]

Originally Posted by Aleron

One potential hang up I guess is that GSDs are as a breed, regardless of lines prone to same sex dog aggression with household dogs. You mention your BC was harassed by your dogs. I'd say that is very unlikely to happen with a GSD but unless all of your dogs are male or all female and you can get an opposite sex GSD, there is always potential for the GSD to mature into a dog who has to be separated from other same sex dogs.

I have seen some SSA from GSDs but it has been few and far between for me to see it with other dogs in the house. Maybe I've been super lucky to see GSDs that aren't SSA. But Judge plays with other intact males and accepts any dog I bring in my house as well as never challenges Hobie...maybe he is an oddity but I thought he was the norm for a nice stable GSD. GSDs can be reactive to other dogs in my experience but I don't think it is that much more than other breeds. IDK.

Most the breeders I listed are in WA and they have a variety of lines so could very easily give you some hands on experience with different lines. Von Grunheide in Snohomish is another great breeder, Suzanne is a K9 officer and knows her stuff!

[FG167]

Originally Posted by Red Chrome

I have seen some SSA from GSDs but it has been few and far between for me to see it with other dogs in the house. Maybe I've been super lucky to see GSDs that aren't SSA. But Judge plays with other intact males and accepts any dog I bring in my house as well as never challenges Hobie...maybe he is an oddity but I thought he was the norm for a nice stable GSD. GSDs can be reactive to other dogs in my experience but I don't think it is that much more than other breeds. IDK.

I've had the same experience with Kastle, Ike, and my friend's dog, Nikon. Pan is reactive, but he doesn't "know" what he is doing so I don't really count that. Kastle though, we've had fosters, added dogs, my parents' dogs, my friends' dogs, not to mention numerous flyball tournaments, where - without fail - dogs will run up to him and be extremely rude, and I've had no issues. He's even had a little dog bite him in the face while on a run, and he growled and waited for me to take care of the problem. He is incredibly aloof, but not a problem. He plays with our dogs and ignores all others.

[AdrianneIsabel]

Is Kastle young? I only ask because that tolerance can definitely fade with age. I would love a dog that maintains that tolerance as an adult though.

[FG167]

Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel

Is Kastle young? I only ask because that tolerance can definitely fade with age. I would love a dog that maintains that tolerance as an adult though.

Kastle is 1.5 years. But, Ike is 3.5 years and is much the same. Neither will take "crap" from other dogs, but they are both very tolerant until another dog starts something. From the GSDs I've been around, both in IPO and at work, the Belgiums tend to breed a...happier dog, for lack of a better word. Kastle has been aloof since the day I brought him home, he is only now beginning to play with our other dogs, in the last 4-5 months or so. Before, he ignored and would only interact if he had a toy in his mouth already.

ETA: but I have made it VERY clear that my dogs are to get along, and we have multiple intact males. Kastle is very, very biddable, and tries VERY hard to do what I ask - so this might also play a part. If he was less biddable, or cared more about dominance than about what I wanted, it may be different in our household. Limit is a bit of an ass with other dogs, but he now cares what I think too (he's 8 months now) and I can easily manage him - he knows to ignore others if he doesn't want to play. I'm a very....strong handler so this has been the case for me for awhile and I've had 5 male dogs of my own.

[Red Chrome]

Originally Posted by FG167

Kastle is 1.5 years. But, Ike is 3.5 years and is much the same. Neither will take "crap" from other dogs, but they are both very tolerant until another dog starts something. From the GSDs I've been around, both in IPO and at work, the Belgiums tend to breed a...happier dog, for lack of a better word. Kastle has been aloof since the day I brought him home, he is only now beginning to play with our other dogs, in the last 4-5 months or so. Before, he ignored and would only interact if he had a toy in his mouth already.

ETA: but I have made it VERY clear that my dogs are to get along, and we have multiple intact males. Kastle is very, very biddable, and tries VERY hard to do what I ask - so this might also play a part. If he was less biddable, or cared more about dominance than about what I wanted, it may be different in our household. Limit is a bit of an ass with other dogs, but he now cares what I think too (he's 8 months now) and I can easily manage him - he knows to ignore others if he doesn't want to play. I'm a very....strong handler so this has been the case for me for awhile and I've had 5 male dogs of my own.

Judge can be reactive on leash to certain dogs. He is very into his "bubble space" so he will react if a dog rushes him. Part of that is IMHO due to the area he was raised in where semi-feral dog packs would chase us on walks.(raised on an indian reservation) But he maintains himself in crowded areas and at shows etc. If I introduce him to other dogs the way he needs to be, he is excellent with them. He doesn't start anything and looks to me before trying to finish something. He also doesn't care about dominance either.

I think most of it is that I require my dogs to put up with a lot and if I bring a new dog in, they need to accept it, period. No questions asked. The bolded part is true for my house as well. I have intact males in and out on a regular basis and I don't have to crate/rotate.

My friend has a GSD bitch who is still intact and who plays with LoLa and other dogs without a problem as well. Judge's breeder has some SSA dogs but they represent a small portion when compared to her dogs that aren't SSA.

I think GSDs like Judge,my friend's bitch,Nikon,Ike and Kastle are more the norm for good stable GSDs than the ones that are SSA.

[FG167]

Also should add, I made it clear to my breeder that my GSD needed to be able to coexist with numerous other dogs, handle himself well in chaotic environments, and be extremely biddable. Puppies, of course, are a crap shoot, but I think the more extreme puppies were crossed off as possible for me with these guidelines.

[staffanatic]

i don't mind dog aggression in general, hell, i have amstafs! But with these amstafs there's always the possiblity you can have 3 dogs that have to be separated at all times. I've accepted that and planned my life around it. So if i'm bringing another breed in, i'd prefer their DA be lower and easier managed. i'd never ask for my dog to accept another dog, blindly and without fail. But i'd be very sad if i had, say, 5 dogs and only 2 at a time could be out together. i have a friend who breeds very hot abpts and while it works for her, i'd never want to play musical rooms/dogs like she does.

Between fosters, babysitting and training, my dogs are very easy going when it comes to other dogs coming into their house.

i just need a dog that will stand up for itself against these frat boy dogs. lol

[Aleron]

Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel

Is Kastle young? I only ask because that tolerance can definitely fade with age.

Absolutely. My two GSD bitches got along extremely well together - total BFFS until they were about 3. I actually haven't known many GSDs who were SSA before they were 2. Between 2 and 4 seems to be the average age for the problem to start.

Originally Posted by Red Chrome

I think most of it is that I require my dogs to put up with a lot and if I bring a new dog in, they need to accept it, period. No questions asked. The bolded part is true for my house as well. I have intact males in and out on a regular basis and I don't have to crate/rotate.

My friend has a GSD bitch who is still intact and who plays with LoLa and other dogs without a problem as well. Judge's breeder has some SSA dogs but they represent a small portion when compared to her dogs that aren't SSA.

SSA with GSDs is usually towards household dogs, so a GSD bitch who can play with non-household bitches isn't necessarily a GSD bitch who can live with other bitches.

I'm curious how many GSDs Judge's breeder has and why you feel the SSA ones are SSA. In these posts, you seem to come across that SSA is a management/training issue, unusual in the breed and it is possibly a sign of an unstable temperament.

Originally Posted by Red Chrome

I think GSDs like Judge,my friend's bitch,Nikon,Ike and Kastle are more the norm for good stable GSDs than the ones that are SSA.

Not to be a naysayer but didn't Pan have to be rehomed when he matured because he and Nikon started seriously fighting? I know Ike lives with other males, how old are the other males? Your friend's bitch is ok with non-household bitches but does she live with other bitches? Judge is ok with an elderly household male but he's your only young male isn't he? None of these dogs seem to "prove" SSA isn't an issue in GSDs, since it seems most aren't exposed to the situation that typically triggers SSA in the breed. Obviously, not every GSD will be SSA but to imply it's not something that one should worry about when getting into the breed is IMO a bit of a misrepresentation. SSA is the reason I no longer have a GSD because in every other way, they are perfect for me and I have always loved the breed.

My very SSA GSD bitch went to daycare with me every day for years without ever having any issue with bitches there. She went to dog shows, agility trials, trade shows, visits to friends and family, tayed in hotel rooms with lots of other doggy roommates and went hiking/swimming with friends dogs. Never had any issues in any of those settings. In fact, she was always extremely polite towards other dogs in their houses. She was tolerant towards bitch puppies and adolescents at my house...until they matured. It was never about dominance, as it didn't matter if the other bitch was submissive or wanting to fight.

Originally Posted by BlackPuppy

I would say a Belgian Tervuren. My Belgians practically trained themselves. My Dutch is a lot more work,but we are getting there. The article says high energy, but the ones I see all the time at training classes and friend's homes are not what I would call high energy. No more than a GSD. And nothing like a Malinois!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian..._Dog_(Tervuren)

Or the black dog if you are particial to black, but I've seen better temperaments in the Tervs I've met.

What about Tervs out of Black Dogs? Better or worse temperaments

Really though, with any of the Belgians so much of it depends on the breeder and what they are breeding for. There's some truly awesome Black Dogs out there and some extremely sketchy Brown Dogs...and vice versa. There's super drivey, wild, energetic dogs in all flavors and some laid back, calm, low drive ones too.

Originally Posted by staffanatic

i don't mind dog aggression in general, hell, i have amstafs! But with these amstafs there's always the possiblity you can have 3 dogs that have to be separated at all times. I've accepted that and planned my life around it. So if i'm bringing another breed in, i'd prefer their DA be lower and easier managed. i'd never ask for my dog to accept another dog, blindly and without fail. But i'd be very sad if i had, say, 5 dogs and only 2 at a time could be out together. i have a friend who breeds very hot abpts and while it works for her, i'd never want to play musical rooms/dogs like she does.

Between fosters, babysitting and training, my dogs are very easy going when it comes to other dogs coming into their house.

i just need a dog that will stand up for itself against these frat boy dogs. lol

Well...this makes me a bit more hesitant about a GSD. What are the ages/sexes of your dogs? My SSA GSD was never a problem with fosters or temporary bitches here. The SSA in them is very different than DA in say APBTs or AmStaffs. With GSD SSA, it's more personal than just "dog aggression" if that makes sense.

[Red Chrome]

Originally Posted by Aleron

SSA with GSDs is usually towards household dogs, so a GSD bitch who can play with non-household bitches isn't necessarily a GSD bitch who can live with other bitches.

This bitch could easily live with other bitches.

Originally Posted by Aleron

I'm curious how many GSDs Judge's breeder has and why you feel the SSA ones are SSA. In these posts, you seem to come across that SSA is a management/training issue, unusual in the breed and it is possibly a sign of an unstable temperament.

She has 8 adult GSDs. 3 of which are SSA. I do feel that in her case it is due to training issues and lack of leadership at a young age. I'm NOT saying that it is unusual in the breed. I do feel that it can be a sign of unstable temperament. I do not think that a well bred STABLE GSD should be over the top SSA to other dogs in their house. That is just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Aleron

Not to be a naysayer but didn't Pan have to be rehomed when he matured because he and Nikon started seriously fighting? I know Ike lives with other males, how old are the other males? Your friend's bitch is ok with non-household bitches but does she live with other bitches? Judge is ok with an elderly household male but he's your only young male isn't he? None of these dogs seem to "prove" SSA isn't an issue in GSDs, since it seems most aren't exposed to the situation that typically triggers SSA in the breed. Obviously, not every GSD will be SSA but to imply it's not something that one should worry about when getting into the breed is IMO a bit of a misrepresentation. SSA is the reason I no longer have a GSD because in every other way, they are perfect for me and I have always loved the breed.

I don't know the exact reason Pan was rehomed. My friend's bitch doesn't live with other females but absolutely could. Actually I have my brother's Boxer living with me and mine who is 3 years old and a butthead. He is constantly challenging Judge, Judge looks to me for help when that happens. But Judge also knows that shenanigans are not acceptable in my house. I'm not saying that GSDs aren't prone to it, but I do feel that most of the cases are lack of leadership/training. I feel it should be worried about just like any other breed but IMHO it isn't more or less common than other breeds.

Originally Posted by Aleron

My very SSA GSD bitch went to daycare with me every day for years without ever having any issue with bitches there. She went to dog shows, agility trials, trade shows, visits to friends and family, tayed in hotel rooms with lots of other doggy roommates and went hiking/swimming with friends dogs. Never had any issues in any of those settings. In fact, she was always extremely polite towards other dogs in their houses. She was tolerant towards bitch puppies and adolescents at my house...until they matured. It was never about dominance, as it didn't matter if the other bitch was submissive or wanting to fight.

The behavior you described is odd to me. I personally wouldn't own a dog like that.

Originally Posted by Aleron

Well...this makes me a bit more hesitant about a GSD. What are the ages/sexes of your dogs? My SSA GSD was never a problem with fosters or temporary bitches here. The SSA in them is very different than DA in say APBTs or AmStaffs. With GSD SSA, it's more personal than just "dog aggression" if that makes sense.

I just don't find this statement accurate. It doesn't have to be that way in my experience. I think SSA is a case by case basis and much more of an individual dog thing than a breed thing.

I'm not saying it isn't an issue in the breed but I do not find it more common than any other breed. I am dogsitting Samoyeds right now and they have 2 bitches that can't be together at all but they get along with the rest of the pack, just fine. The reason those 2 bitches don't get along, lack of leadership at a young age.

[Aleron]

Originally Posted by Red Chrome

This bitch could easily live with other bitches.

Except that she doesn't Seriously, if Jora never lived with other bitches I would have never, ever thought she would have a problem. She was fine with non-household bitches and not even DR. When I got another bitch and GSD people started warning me that there could be issues down the road keeping two same sex and especially same sex, close in age bitches together I thought they were a bit paranoid. Besides, my two bitches were BFFs! And of course they were raised well, trained properly and well socialized. I didn't think that would ever be an issue for me and my dogs. People who have those problems must have really aggressive dogs or just not manage them well. Now I know better.

Originally Posted by Red Chrome

She has 8 adult GSDs. 3 of which are SSA. I do feel that in her case it is due to training issues and lack of leadership at a young age. I'm NOT saying that it is unusual in the breed. I do feel that it can be a sign of unstable temperament. I do not think that a well bred STABLE GSD should be over the top SSA to other dogs in their house. That is just my opinion.

Everyone's entitled to their opinions of course. I have to say that I do wonder why you would buy from a breeder who you felt couldn't properly train and manage their dogs? And who's dogs (3 out of 8) may have unstable temperaments?

Originally Posted by Red Chrome

The behavior you described is odd to me. I personally wouldn't own a dog like that.

That's fine. It's not really that odd though. And FWIW just about everyone who was around her loved her because she was such a great example of the breed temperament wise. Amline people, working line people, agility people, k9 officers, pet people, etc. She was an extremely sound and very, very good dog.

Originally Posted by Red Chrome

I just don't find this statement accurate. It doesn't have to be that way in my experience. I think SSA is a case by case basis and much more of an individual dog thing than a breed thing.

Do you feel APBTs also fight due to poor leadership? Or that Foxhounds get along so well in huge groups because they are so well trained and managed?

Originally Posted by Red Chrome

I'm not saying it isn't an issue in the breed but I do not find it more common than any other breed. I am dogsitting Samoyeds right now and they have 2 bitches that can't be together at all but they get along with the rest of the pack, just fine. The reason those 2 bitches don't get along, lack of leadership at a young age.

It is really oversimplified to say the only reasons people would have SSA issues are lack of leadership and/or unstable temperament.

I really wish it wasn't more of a concern in GSDs than in the average dog. But well, in your examples you said nearly half of Judge's breeder's personal dogs are SSA, one of the dogs mentioned in this thread was rehomed due to SSA, one of my 3 GSDs was SSA, a GSD breeder friend of mine has had several SSA dogs. Just in this small sampling of dogs you and I know personally or have known, there's at least 10 dogs who have displayed SSA. Dogs owned by knowledge dog people. If you hang out on the GSD forum, it's not at all uncommon for people to post asking for help with their same sex dogs who have started fighting. I'm sure we both know many more than that though. Know how many Goldens I can think of off the top of my head with SSA? None. Poodles? None. Collies? None. And very often when I hear of SSA in breeds like that, it's like what you're saying with the 2 Sammy bitches - two bitches who just hate each other but are good with all other dogs. Or males who are jerks but not really out for blood. Now Dobermans? Have known quite a few SSA ones and I don't even know a lot. Rotties? Yep. And obviously GSDs. That would point towards it being more of a concern in some breeds than it is in others. I'm not saying that GSDs are always or almost always SSA. Some are and some aren't. And some who aren't would be if exposed to the right triggers. I do not think that it generally has to be with "dominance" or "leadership" issues with the owner. SSA should never come as a surprise in the breed. Which is why I haven't gotten another one.

One interesting thing I have noticed in GSDs I have known well is that SSA bitches are often really good with their daughters and granddaughters, providing they have always been together. I'm not sure that a leadership issue between dog and owner would cause a dog to want to eliminate unrelated bitches but favor those genetically related to them? SSA in GSDs is pretty complicated.