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  #31  
Old 11-18-2012, 10:41 PM
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If I where to join a political party it would be this one, http://www.akip.org/.
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Sometimes BOTH sides are just full of sh1t.
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  #32  
Old 11-18-2012, 11:01 PM
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This is sad. I'm from Texas, and for the most part I'm quite happy to live here. But this whole secede business.....*sigh* An overwhelming majority of the people in Texas, even the ones who don't like Obama, are quite happy being American. And we're just as "WTF??" about the petition as most other people in the U.S.

The whole secede thing has been around for years. I've had the (mis)fortune of talking with some of the leaders who are actively involved in pushing the movement. I will tell you: it boggles the mind at how out-of-touch they are. You'd think that they'd be looking at it from a realistic view and creating a viable plan for the Nation of Texas. But these people....yikes. Here's some of the common themes I've heard from them. I swear I'm not making any of this up.

1) All Texans would stay in Texas. They think that everyone who currently lives here would stay put if Texas seceded. Umm....NO. I'd estimate that most of the population would pull up stakes and head to the United States. And quite a few of them have said that not only would they leave, they would burn their homes and businesses to the ground on the way out so that Texas could not have them.

2) All of the U.S. military currently here would stay and become the Texas military. When I asked them what their plan was for defense of the country of Texas, the answer I got was, "We already have a military ready to go. All those military bases like Lackland and Fort Hood are in Texas, so we'll have plenty of soldiers and equipment for our country." They think that all the U.S. military personnel already here would stay in Texas, along with the planes, tanks, and other equipment, that are here. The think the same thing would happen with all other Federal entities, such as FBI, Border Patrol, TSA, etc. Of course in reality, the U.S. military and the feds would withdraw and strip their facilities bare rather than give them to another country.

3) All businesses would stay. Once again, no.

So basically, they seriously think that everything will stay exactly as it is in Texas, except for no U.S. government. That's their grand plan for the future.

So that's my rant. Cookies if you read it all. And I've decided that if Texas really does somehow secede, I'm moving to the NEW 50th state in the union: Austin.
i'm going to disagree on a few points
1. the vast majority of americans born & raised here still base their identity on the state they consider home. the attitude seems strongest in "states' that existed during the war of northern aggression (on BOTH sides not just the confederate states). my personal experience w/ texans is that most native texans would stay or return from where they currently reside at the earliest opportunity. FTR if TX seceded tonight, my house would go on the market tomorrow and we'd head back there as soon as possible. additionally i know of several nontexans that have stated they would move there as well because they would expect a better regulatory environment for economic growth.
2. the preseumption that most native texans would stay is not unfounded, first because of identity, second because most industry/business is too big to just pick up & move (and may not move at all if assured of more profitable regulatory environment) they may need to stay for financial reasons. in the USSR when it broke up a lot of ethnic russians stayed in the new countries they were already residing in because they had better opportunity than if they moved to the new country of russia. even the ethnic germans (forcibly deported from Ukraine during WWI to central asia) mostly chose to remain in the central asian republics because no one was alive that had any attachment or memory of their ethnic groups previous homeland.
3. the expectation of retaining current military personnel is ridiculous, but the expectation of a certain amount of material staying & active duty personnel from Texas being granted honorable discharge & permitted to return is not. as the break up of the USSR shows, under a peaceful dissolution terms are laid out written ip & signed whereby ownership of material is transferred from one govt to the other. this is mostly for the convenience of the newly weakened central govt. the loss of member states affects the central govt's credit rating & therefore it's ability to generate new debt. w/o the ability to create new debt the fed will have no means of moving most of the material (just for reference when gas was about $1.25 a gal it cost us $60,000 to move one from NC to AZ for training purposes). you simply can't pick up a base & move it so those go to the state by default. if they're lucky the fed might get to continue to use a few bases (like the russian black sea fleet using a Ukrainian base). as for manpower, it is to the benefit of the fed to permit all Texans that want to to peacefully leave their job/service & return to TX. if you don't it creates a potential security & disciplinary risk by retaining them against their wishes. even those volunteering to stay are now potential intelligence risks. likewise returnees open an avenue to plant reliable intelligence assets in the new country.
4. ALL businesses won't stay but neither will they all move. some simply can't, you can't just pick up port facilities, pipelines, oil refineries & factories. most really large corporations are global now anyway and secession wouldn't significantly change their operations. further the large businesses will take a hard look at what will be more profitable for them. if the regulatory environment & infrastructure is adequate & will support profitable growth better, some businesses will move to the secessionist state.

mind you there is NO WAY the fed is going to permit secession & certainly not peacefully, but it is a an important attempt to get through to the powers in both political parties just how far BOTH have drifted from from liberty toward control & how offensive that is to a lot of americans (a very substantial minority).
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  #33  
Old 11-18-2012, 11:14 PM
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Revolution? What? Why?

I live in New Hampshire and I haven't seen any real influence of the Free Staters on New Hampshire politics. Thank god.
people tend to see what they want to see. for example the presidential debates, the whackadoos on BOTH sides saw THEIR candidate as shredding the other guy & winning handily. the extremes of both sides see nefarious conspiracies against liberty in the actions of the other side.
the funny thing is that an objective review of their actions in office shows that both presidential candidates were more alike than different.
likewise a review of the main complaints against Bush shows that Obama didn't change a single thing that Bush did that upset so many people.
i'm sure there are a few folks in NH that are terrified of the impact free staters have in NH politics.
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  #34  
Old 11-18-2012, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Pops2 View Post
people tend to see what they want to see. for example the presidential debates, the whackadoos on BOTH sides saw THEIR candidate as shredding the other guy & winning handily. the extremes of both sides see nefarious conspiracies against liberty in the actions of the other side.
the funny thing is that an objective review of their actions in office shows that both presidential candidates were more alike than different.
likewise a review of the main complaints against Bush shows that Obama didn't change a single thing that Bush did that upset so many people
The thing about conspiracy theories is once you go the route of a conspiracy theory anything possible. American politics is too filled with drama. People should just go to polls and vote. From the silly political signs all over the roads to the campaign ads, I'm glad the elections are over.

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i'm sure there are a few folks in NH that are terrified of the impact free staters have in NH politics.
They've had zero impact on the elections here. However, if you count harassing law enforcement as productive, they have done something.
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  #35  
Old 11-19-2012, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by MinPinOwner View Post
The thing about conspiracy theories is once you go the route of a conspiracy theory anything possible. American politics is too filled with drama. People should just go to polls and vote. From the silly political signs all over the roads to the campaign ads, I'm glad the elections are over.
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Originally Posted by MinPinOwner View Post
They've had zero impact on the elections here. However, if you count harassing law enforcement as productive, they have done something.
doesn't mean you can't find a couple of people to go all chicken little about them.
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  #36  
Old 11-19-2012, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pops2 View Post
people tend to see what they want to see. for example the presidential debates, the whackadoos on BOTH sides saw THEIR candidate as shredding the other guy & winning handily. the extremes of both sides see nefarious conspiracies against liberty in the actions of the other side.
the funny thing is that an objective review of their actions in office shows that both presidential candidates were more alike than different.
likewise a review of the main complaints against Bush shows that Obama didn't change a single thing that Bush did that upset so many people.

i'm sure there are a few folks in NH that are terrified of the impact free staters have in NH politics.
EXACTLY!

Change, my ass.

Well, except for having a grasp of language . . .
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  #37  
Old 11-19-2012, 09:41 AM
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Oh there are certain issues that there are big differences. And yes, important issues that DO matter and are not just smoke screens.

However, I do agree that on many things that are also important they are too similar
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  #38  
Old 11-20-2012, 06:49 PM
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Texas has seceded three different times Inge past & it hasn't worked before ... 33% of the population of a state the size of Texas isn't really that much, I just think its ppl voicing their frustrations with the country. That big govt is taking more & more power of decision away from state legislation. Which I get but no, I don't want to secede either. I like the Benicia of being part of the US, tho I get pissed at it sometimes.
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