Obedience and Rally O training

[TuffStuff]

Originally Posted by release the hounds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uOtTygJ1ec

Competition video.

Is this passable?

I love that dog. Always so neat to watch!

[MandyPug]

First rally advanced leg with a 98 and HIC.

[smeagle]

Originally Posted by Emily

Where did you get the impression that dogs aren't "supposed to be in drive" during AKC Obedience?

AKC OB may be "scaled down" because it's in a smaller ring and often indoors, but it is absolutely supposed to be an exercise in precision and drive. I've never seen a decent OB run where the dog wasn't in drive.

But they aren't 'supposed' to be in drive. There's nothing in the rules that state it is an exercise in drive, there are no points allocated to dogs that show drive and engagement etc, the dog just has to complete the exercise. I've seen dogs that plod along next to the handler score better than a more animated dog. Some judges may enjoy seeing a dog working in drive, but they can't score a team better for it and it's not a requirement.

It sucks and I think there should be points allocated for dogs and handlers that show awesome team work but the reality is that all the dog needs to do is complete the exercise.

Originally Posted by Aleron

I tend to agree. The dog seems happy but that's not the same as "oozing with drive".

I can see where people could get the impression that AKC obedience isn't done in drive. Certainly I see less dogs working in drive at trials than I see dogs working in drive. I think at the upper levels, you see more drivey performances but even at that, there's certainly some rather flat OTCH dogs. I think keeping the dog precise and very up can be an issue and "up-ness" isn't scoreable, so precision is favored.

I agree, it's the same here. If you went to a trial the majority of dogs aren't working in drive. I've seen plenty of flat UD and OC dogs who have been trained heavily with correction. We train dogs in drive because it gives a more reliable dog, more precision, a dog who is more durable around distractions, and therefore more likely to pass and score highly.

I just started training heelwork with the Mal pup, it's lots of fun. I shaped it a bit with food and now I'm using a magnetic ball as the primary reward.

[Flyinsbt]

Originally Posted by smeagle

But they aren't 'supposed' to be in drive. There's nothing in the rules that state it is an exercise in drive, there are no points allocated to dogs that show drive and engagement etc, the dog just has to complete the exercise. I've seen dogs that plod along next to the handler score better than a more animated dog. Some judges may enjoy seeing a dog working in drive, but they can't score a team better for it and it's not a requirement.

Well actually, there is. The beginning of the rules states that the dog should show "willingness and enjoyment". So in an equally precise performance, the "up" dog should score higher than the plodder. Judging is subjective, so it may not always happen that way, but that is what the rules ask for. One problem is that it's harder to get precision when you're getting the up and flashy performance, so as much as the judge may enjoy it, if there's a crooked sit, they have to score that.

[Laurelin]

I don't know it's not that I don't think dogs work in drive that makes me a lot less keen to obedience and rally. I think I just like the exhilaration of running agility.

We've been doing some heel work in spare time. (Agility exercises come first.)

Mia's heel is very naturally flashy and awesome looking. She's got her head back and prances. She's not close though, which my trainer says is common with little dogs (afraid of being stepped on).

My big problem right now is that I've had summer for 4 years and have let her walk behind me on every walk. So... heeling is interesting. She naturally is positioned about a foot behind. I'm attempting to correct it by rewarding right at my leg. anybody have this problem? Summer just naturally wants to walk behind me so bad.

Problem 2 is actually embarrassing. Mia won't sit consistently. Sit and stay have been the hardest things to teach her by far.

[Emily]

Originally Posted by Flyinsbt

Well actually, there is. The beginning of the rules states that the dog should show "willingness and enjoyment". So in an equally precise performance, the "up" dog should score higher than the plodder. Judging is subjective, so it may not always happen that way, but that is what the rules ask for. One problem is that it's harder to get precision when you're getting the up and flashy performance, so as much as the judge may enjoy it, if there's a crooked sit, they have to score that.

This. The dog is absolutely supposed to be engaged and enjoying his work.

But to be honest, I don't train that way because I want the points. I train that way because it's how I want my dog to look. It's the picture I'm seeking.

[smeagle]

Originally Posted by Flyinsbt

Well actually, there is. The beginning of the rules states that the dog should show "willingness and enjoyment". So in an equally precise performance, the "up" dog should score higher than the plodder. Judging is subjective, so it may not always happen that way, but that is what the rules ask for.

How can an up dog score higher than a plodder if they both complete the exercise within the rules? Genuine question, where in the rules for any of the exercises would the judge be able to score a dog higher for having a better attitude? It may be different in the US to the rules here, so I am genuinely curious.

One problem is that it's harder to get precision when you're getting the up and flashy performance, so as much as the judge may enjoy it, if there's a crooked sit, they have to score that.

I actually find it easier to get precision with a dog in drive, but I also think that people who have to take drive out of a dog to get precision don't understand how to use drive properly.

Originally Posted by Emily

This. The dog is absolutely supposed to be engaged and enjoying his work.

But to be honest, I don't train that way because I want the points. I train that way because it's how I want my dog to look. It's the picture I'm seeking.

Of course, me too. I love my dogs to work enthusiastically and to me it looks better regardless of if it will score higher, but I think the benefit of training a dog to work in drive in the ring (considering that you aren't being judged on it specifically) is that it makes a more durable and reliable dog, IMO. I know that there are old school judges out there that don't like the style of heelwork I like (up and prancy) and they will intentionally try to deduct points because they don't like it, despite that I still train it because I like it.

[Dekka]

On the drive issue. To me up happy and willing to work is not the same as drive. You can have a happy up dog with mediocre drive. You can also have a dog in drive that is over the top and lacks impulse control.

From talking to judges (Ok mainly CKC but the rules on judging are nearly identical and I know people who show both sides of the border) if the dog does it correctly no points will come off. Remember you start with all the points, and lose them for faults. There is no way for a judge to GIVE you points for an exciting perfomance. I wish they could. I have seen a dog who was clearly not enjoying itself get a high scoring round because it made no faults. It was slow responding, but not slow enough to take off points. All the sits were straight, the retrieve was correct.. even though the dog looked as if would rather be at the vet's than in that ring..

Originally Posted by MandyPug

Izzie has her RN and achieved it with a 4th (82) and 2 HICs (100, and 99). She's hitting the mats again this weekend for 3 trials in Advanced A and hopefully we get all three!

She's not quite ready for the obedience ring yet, her heeling duration isn't where it should be but we do fun matches to get ring experience. She's also a weirdo about heeling because of her lack of peripheral vision in her left eye so head-up heeling isn't always there. Oh and i've stepped on her plenty so she's never going to be a super tight stuck to my leg heeler, but we do what we can

The head up thing isn't required. Kaiden had done just fine in obed without the head up heeling. That doesn't mean I would ever train that way again (Dekka has an awesome heel) but he has never lost points for it..

Gratuitous Kaiden obed ribbon

Originally Posted by Finkie_Mom

Oh! I can start with a question... How does everyone teach "front?"

with my dogs I have taught them to target the spot where my pants touch just below my knees (calves).. I have small dogs. I also have dogs that like to anticipate so after the front I will often widen my stance and send them straight through, and only occasionally do a flip or right finish.

[AdrianneIsabel]

I've seen allowances made for dogs that may not be perfect in performance but are excited and trying, as opposed to obligatorily shifting trough the routine waiting for the edit gate. Not the same but similar.

Also not everyone wants a heads up heel, I don't think every dog needs one.

[Laurelin]

Drive is one of those words that to me seems to mean a totally different thing to whoever you talk to. I know what I like when I see it but whether that's a 'drivey' dog to someone else, who knows. I've seen plenty of dogs described as 'drivey' that totally underwhelm me.