Obedience and Rally O training

[release the hounds]

Originally Posted by Flyinsbt

Trust me, the dog is oozing with drive. I've seen him in person. It's harder to see in the video, because you can't see that he's about to jump out of his skin, but his every move is fully engaged. He's a big dog with a long stride, and to keep him precise in that small ring the drive has to be capped, but it is very much there.

when he goes over the top, he barks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_K1Ud92s9s

So she has to keep him really in check.

you can tell me it's there, but i see average

[Flyinsbt]

Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel

He looks fantastic, my biggest gripe about AKC obedience is the inconsistency of hand allowances. I have been told by judges I cannot glue my hand my my stomach, as such. It makes me very uncomfortable not knowing exactly can I can and cannot do with any given judge.

You can hold your hand at your stomach when you heel, but tensing up and grabbing onto your shirt (which I tend to do) is not preferable. You're supposed to look "natural". So you just hold your hand casually at your waist. Like one so naturally does.

If any judge tells you differently, they're wrong.

[Flyinsbt]

Originally Posted by release the hounds

you can tell me it's there, but i see average

Fine. I didn't actually say the performance was oozing drive, I said the dog was. I can see the drive in the dog through that performance, but if you can't, show me a video of what you consider a high drive dog in obedience.

[Flyinsbt]

Originally Posted by release the hounds

Lots of hip tapping, finger targets and handler help. Didn't realize so much was allowed.

You can do what you need to do between exercises, as long as it doesn't involve touching the dog.

[release the hounds]

Originally Posted by Flyinsbt

Fine. I didn't actually say the performance was oozing drive, I said the dog was. I can see the drive in the dog through that performance, but if you can't, show me a video of what you consider a high drive dog in obedience.

I can see drive just fine thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUAAvEXWZOU

[Aleron]

Originally Posted by release the hounds

It's a nice routine, but I wouldn't call it oozing with drive by any means. I've seen plenty of IPO dogs that aren't very drivey in OB too, but I wouldn't call that a drivey routine.

I tend to agree. The dog seems happy but that's not the same as "oozing with drive".

I can see where people could get the impression that AKC obedience isn't done in drive. Certainly I see less dogs working in drive at trials than I see dogs working in drive. I think at the upper levels, you see more drivey performances but even at that, there's certainly some rather flat OTCH dogs. I think keeping the dog precise and very up can be an issue and "up-ness" isn't scoreable, so precision is favored.

Originally Posted by Finkie_Mom

Oh! I can start with a question... How does everyone teach "front?"

Jagger has the best fronts of any dog I have had and I taught him by teaching him to target a piece of duct tape, then sticking it to my shirt, then fading it fairly quickly. I did get quite a bit of bumping early on...ok more like slamming into me when he couldn't stop but he settled into a nice front with some work. Unless he's too excited. I learned to stand very firmly on the recall

[Flyinsbt]

Originally Posted by release the hounds

I can see drive just fine thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUAAvEXWZOU

Well, that's a training video, as opposed to competition, so it's not a direct comparison. However, I don't see those dogs exhibiting more drive, except in vocalizing and fidgety performance, which a person would want to avoid in obedience competition. And you can train past them, without squelching the dogs drive, you just have to channel it very specifically, as Petra did with Tyler.
(when I say "you", I mostly mean people other than myself. I'm not so good at it myself.)

[Flyinsbt]

Originally Posted by Aleron

I tend to agree. The dog seems happy but that's not the same as "oozing with drive".

I can see where people could get the impression that AKC obedience isn't done in drive. Certainly I see less dogs working in drive at trials than I see dogs working in drive. I think at the upper levels, you see more drivey performances but even at that, there's certainly some rather flat OTCH dogs. I think keeping the dog precise and very up can be an issue and "up-ness" isn't scoreable, so precision is favored.

Again, I didn't say the performance itself was oozing with drive, I said the dog was, and he is. I do see intense drive in that performance, though. Drive isn't just about being fast and twitchy, drive is about being intensely engaged in the task at hand, and he is. Getting a dog with higher drive like that to remain so intensely engaged while also staying precise is difficult, I know, because I haven't been able to do it. So my drivier dog is a terrible obedience dog, she doesn't really engage with it because it's not fast paced enough to keep her. If I was a better trainer, she could be good like that. Instead, she's a fabulous agility dog, with a CD.

You just don't keep a dog engaged with a heeling pattern this long unless the dog is working in drive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnBjxHXwLrM

[AdrianneIsabel]

I'm not sure how a video of training can be used to compare to drive in an AKC ring.

The ability to remain "up" and flashy in the AKC ring says a lot to me about a dog, we've see a lot of struggles with several owners, several breeds, and several training methods. It is a challenge and when you see it come together its is something to be admired, IMO.

[release the hounds]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uOtTygJ1ec

Competition video.

Is this passable?