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  #221  
Old 10-19-2012, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
I guess you really have to trust you breeder and your knowledge of the dogs to weigh the good and the bad. He's not what I consider a well balanced dog but he sure looks amazing when he's working.
Just to snip the last bit there -- I think it's also that you need to find a breeder who considers the same things to be good/bad as you, and that you can trust to breed accordingly and be honest in their assessments. Looking super flashy in the ring is what a fair number of people breed for -- the only difference is WHAT ring (or field or course or whatnot). And whether you can enjoy living with them the rest of the time
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  #222  
Old 10-19-2012, 10:32 AM
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Two years ago Backups breeder stopped by after we'd bought him a month or so earlier and I told her I intended to make him a house pet in addition to the sporting/working. She laughed, a lot, and she's still laughing.

Lesson learned, trust your breeder.
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  #223  
Old 10-19-2012, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
Two years ago Backups breeder stopped by after we'd bought him a month or so earlier and I told her I intended to make him a house pet in addition to the sporting/working. She laughed, a lot, and she's still laughing.

Lesson learned, trust your breeder.
Seems like what Judge's breeder did when I told her he'd be a house pet. She still laughs about it.

To touch on the breeding, it's all a gamble, you can set yourself up perfect and the cards can crumble in the end. I personally would see no problem using Backup as a stud when taken to a female that offers the things he lacks. You never know, he might produce very well, but you never know until you breed them. Sometimes a breeder will breed a litter to see what the dogs will produce as long as they are doing it responsibly with health testing and placing responsibly, who's business is it really?
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  #224  
Old 10-19-2012, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
Is it okay to breed any breed as a pet or just those who're historically companion dogs?
Is it ok to breed any breed to herd or just those who are historically herding dogs?

Not trying to be snarky, but just to try to illustrate my point, which is admittedly hard to articulate. Really, any dog could do anything. I have a hound who mushes and who so far is better at it and more interested in it than my working line Alaskan husky. But the next dog I get for mushing probably isn't going to be a hound.

Any dog can potentially do anything, but some are probably going to be better at some things than others based on their behavioral traits. Although I love them, none of my dogs are quite what I would describe as having attributes that I would look for in a dog bred specifically for the work of companionship. Now, I don't WANT a dog bred specifically for companionship, as it's not personally my cup of tea. But there's a difference between a companionship-bred dog and a dog who is my personal companion which I find very hard to articulate and always makes these discussions frustrating for me. Not that I don't think many dogs and breeds can fill the role, but that I do think it's something worthy of breeding for.
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  #225  
Old 10-19-2012, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Aleron View Post
The issue with the argument that shelters are full of pets so you shouldn't breed for pets is a bit off base. It assume that people looking for pets are open to taking a dog of any type, any age. And that there are enough pet quality puppies from working/show/sport breeders in the popular breeds to meet the need of people looking for pets of a certain breed. I will use GSDs as an example. A person who just loves GSDs wants a nice puppy for a pet. They look into breeders in their area. They are turned off by the show breeders dogs because of the structure. They are turned off of the working bred dogs because of price and maybe are told those dogs would be too much for them. So what's left? Pet breeders and rescue/shelters. One could argue there are plenty of GSDs in rescue, so that would be the obvious choice. But there's not many GSD puppies in rescue and knowing if a puppy at a shelter is actually a GSD puppy or not can be tricky.

This is the person that pet breeding is for, not people like most who post on this forum. It is for a pet owner who likes a specific type of dog and wants a puppy. Not everyone can justify spending $1000-4000 on a puppy from the best of the best pedigree because having the best of the best pedigree doesn't matter to most pet owners. Even if they could, there just aren't enough pet quality dogs being produced by show/sport/working breeders. This is especially true in toy breeds, where 1-3 puppies is about all you get in a litter.

When I was a little kid, before getting into dogs my parents bought their dogs out of the newspaper and what we got depended on what was for sale and what sounded good. My parents got the puppy, then bought the breed book and read up on the breed. And such a story makes dog people cringe but really, my parents had pretty low expectations for behavior and were committed to the dog for life. And that went for any dog we got. When I got my own first dog, we went to the pound and picked out a Beagle mix because my parents didn't want another dog that would be too big. The Beagle mix grew up to be 85lbs and had fear reactivity/aggression issues for his first 3 years and still, he was never at risk of losing his home. My first purebred dog was a Collie my parents bought for me as a teen from a pet breeder for $150 (breeder did health test but didn't compete in anything and openly bred for pets) and he was a wonderful dog. I looked and looked at "good" breeders when he died to find another dog with as good of a temperament as he had but had no luck at all.

Also while it might not seem like it, ending all pet breeding of all breeds might not be the best thing for the breed because it will diminish the gene pool. I know of a group of breeders in one toy breed who went to a commercial breeder for dogs because it was found that this breeder had some of the only dogs left in the breed who were free of a popular sire, including many pet bred dogs. The dogs they got were not "low quality" either. They were able to finish at least one of the dogs and many of the puppies of the dogs were show quality. But even if they weren't show quality, it was a worthwhile project to preserve a line which would have otherwise been lost.

There is no one easy answer to the subject of who should breed, which dogs should be bred and where everyone should be getting their next dog or puppy.


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  #226  
Old 10-19-2012, 09:17 PM
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That is part of what I defined in my definition of having a job. Obedience, therapy, agility, etc all count. They are out there working with other people, being tested in above average (for your typical pet) situations, etc. I would not consider that a pet breeder.
I don't know, it's all subjective because IMO she is a pet breeder. The people that purchase her dogs are looking for nice family pets. They are not looking for agility stars (well, not that you would look for a boxer in the first place if that's what you wanted LOL) or a dog to compete with. Which is line with what she is trying to produce... nice, healthy dogs.

But that also goes along with what I define as a "good" breeder instead of a BYB. I support pet breeders but I want to see it done with health testing and with "things" to show why your dog is so awesome - you don't have to compete or have titles, but a CGC and showing that you do activities with your dogs and are involved with them, can mean a lot. I don't think being a pet breeder has to mean you breed your dog just because they like to be scratched on the ears and like to snuggle on the couch. Because well, yeah, there are many dogs that are good at that but don't necessarily need to reproduce just because of it.

Quote:
Not to really pass judgment, but to further this.. The Dekklets were bred to be more drivey than the average pet home wants. So when I was looking for homes for that litter I looked for sport homes. Not to say they weren't going to make fantastic pets for those looking for drivey small JRTs. Just that they were likely going to need a slightly more involved owner which typically comes with sport homes.

Now Seren's litter.. they should be decent sport dogs (OMG Quest already tugs!) but they should also be fairly easy dogs, making them good candidate for strictly pet homes. Ice is going to a strictly pet home. Quest is still a bit up in the air where she is going (what is it with having people disappear off waiting lists?) But ideally, yes I would like her to go to a sport home.

So perhaps the breeder in question breeds high drive dogs who tend to get returned when they go to your typical pet home.
Oh I totally get this, I don't think it's wrong for a breeder to sell only to performance homes. But if the only breeders out there are breeders focusing on producing dogs for work/sport/show, then I don't think it leaves many options available for people that aren't interested in those things, and just want a nice puppy from a good breeder. Which is also why I am okay with "pet breeders".
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  #227  
Old 10-22-2012, 07:30 PM
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The latest drivel to show up in my newsfeed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=_2gGaKizk8I#!

Why is it that when you say that you support ethical breeders they counter with things that ethical breeders don't do?
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  #228  
Old 10-22-2012, 08:24 PM
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This is one of those times where I'm glad that 95% of my friends are not "dog people". And that those that are do not feel the need to sit on some self built moral high horse and have the ability and maturity to respect another's opinion.
This. People are appalled when they find out that Violet isn't a rescue. They assume that because Chloe is a rescue, that we would've rescued our next dog as well.
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  #229  
Old 10-23-2012, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Aleron View Post
The issue with the argument that shelters are full of pets so you shouldn't breed for pets is a bit off base. It assume that people looking for pets are open to taking a dog of any type, any age. And that there are enough pet quality puppies from working/show/sport breeders in the popular breeds to meet the need of people looking for pets of a certain breed. I will use GSDs as an example. A person who just loves GSDs wants a nice puppy for a pet. They look into breeders in their area. They are turned off by the show breeders dogs because of the structure. They are turned off of the working bred dogs because of price and maybe are told those dogs would be too much for them. So what's left? Pet breeders and rescue/shelters. One could argue there are plenty of GSDs in rescue, so that would be the obvious choice. But there's not many GSD puppies in rescue and knowing if a puppy at a shelter is actually a GSD puppy or not can be tricky.
Very well said.

Actually Scout's first adopter got her from the shelter because "its what you do" and she fondly remembered childhood GSD's that her family had. Scout doesn't do well without a job, so that went well... And frankly I can't believe she bought a mostly GSD puppy produced by a crazy hoarder "breeding" sled dogs for as much as higher end byb's charge. No owner who wants a sporting/working dog these days is going to pay that for a shelter puppy. Especially with all the temperament issues in the dogs from that bust and the lack of health testing and her having a dash of husky in there.

The more I train with Scout, the more convinced I am that she'd be very different and very capable of earning some pretty awesome titles if I'd had her from puppyhood, even with the stupid beginner mistakes I've made with Lily and her. Lily too if I hadn't followed some crappy old school trainer advice and quashed her drive for tugging/biting when I first got her. There is some awesome base material in her... best bite inhibition in social situations I've ever seen in a dog coupled with some pretty awesome drive for bitework in sport situations... doesn't get any more biddable than a dog willing to do whatever I ask her despite her being freaked by it... and I really wonder how different that would be if she hadn't been messed up by someone who put in her into some situations that did some big damage in sensitive developmental periods in her youth. Because she isn't a "no touch" dog... she actually adores people, but she was unfairly put into some terrifying situations because her well meaning first two owners just didn't know any better. And its marked her for life. Yeah they spend some time every day playing with each other in the house and they are always ready to go, but most of their time inside is spent lying at my feet passed out. I take them to my mom's office that I clean for her on Fridays and they lounge around and accept pets from people who come in. Never once have they behaved inappropriately there despite being working mixes from dubious backgrounds. They passed out (well Lily did some begging fromt he people next to us with chicken salad too lol) at MSIP's production of Hamlet this summer. Scout, the one I jokingly call my nervebag was laid all the way out on her side and had several people step over her multiple times... she slept through all of it, even the booming and stuff to go with the ghost's appearances in the play. And I hadn't worn them out that day either, we sat around under a tree and read all day. This from two dogs who'd happily go, go, go all day long even.

On the other hand there are very well bred performance/working dogs that are "no touch" dogs despite having excellent training and socialization from day one. Why the heck can't we breed whole the WHOLE PACKAGE and get dogs that can work AND live with us and go do everything with us out in the world???

Also the people who own our old cabin have a really really nice GSD boy from an atrocious pet breeder that literally lists the finer points of their stock as enjoying watching tv with them. This boy has nice structure, wonderful sporty temperament (he'd be a really nice IPO dog no doubt), and is now chasing their horses and confined to his pen half the time because he has no job and is only in a pet home. So not all pet bred dogs in working breeds are worthless... I don't feel those breeders should be supported, but I also don't think its okay that dogs get put into those situations just because people want a pretty pet. A byb lab would be doing the same crap out of boredom in a pet home with zero outlet/structure... and so would a well bred lab probably. Frankly I don't think its fair that most bird dog people's dogs here live their entire lives in outdoor kennels or on chain spots and are only gotten out to hunt.

Just something I've been thinking over lately. There's got to be some middle ground to make things better for dogs and people all across the board. I don't think its so out there to ask for a dog that you can both live and work with. And it does seem like there are some breeders out there who do produce for that.
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