Fluoride and dogs?

[release the hounds]

Originally Posted by Dekka

For those who say its not safe.. do you have any studies to back that up? Living in the country my only exp with it as a kid where we would be given fluoride mouth rinses at school once a month.

Is it actually dangerous? Or is this more of a OMG a chemical in my water deal? Maf's links look legit to me....

they certainly do look legit I guess I'll have to go find a few myself. As I've understood for years, the data showing increased flouride in water with a decrease in dental caries was loose at best and often touted as "proof". It was often shown that injesting Flouride had no effect on a persons dentition, and when drinking water, the enamel wasn't subjected to the flouride long enough to have any influence on the teeth.

The long rinses of flouride, like those given occassionaly in schools were different and did have an effect on the teeth.

anyway, here's an interesting read
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...12+PRN20120724

"The children in high fluoride areas had significantly lower IQ than those who lived in low fluoride areas," write Choi et al.

anyway, back to teeth,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18978383

CONCLUSIONS:

There is weak and inconsistent evidence that the use of fluoride supplements prevents dental caries in primary teeth. There is evidence that such supplements prevent caries in permanent teeth. Mild-to-moderate dental fluorosis is a significant side effect.

Anyway, As to not get into a linking battle with the one who gives the last link "winning", I'll give my last opinion on the matter.

It does occur naturally in water, in some areas it seems to be beneficial when looking at tooth health, in other areas it appears to have other detriments in the populations health when expanding your vision beyond the teeth.

But we're not talking about either, we're talking about letting industrial waste being dumped into your municipal water supply for something that has little if any effect on your teeth. If YOU believe flouride is that beneficial to you and will give you the teeth you've always dreamed of and believe that it will have no other effects on your health or body, then go to the store and buy it for yourself. It really is that simple.

If this was the ONLY way to get decent teeth, i'd say people have an argument of dumping this in your water supply. Seems to me a tooth brush and some floss will go a lot further along in that regard than dumping industrial waste into your drinking water. That and getting all the sugar and grain out of your mouth.

[Dekka]

OK fair enough post (and with you all the way on getting the excess carbs out.. OMG the difference in my teeth since I have gone low carb has been amazing!)

But here is the thing. Fluorine is an element. When you put a fluorine salt into water you get a fluoride (an ion of Fluorine). This is regardless of HOW it gets there. The F- atoms are going to be the same regardless. Of if they are being purified from industrial waste it makes no difference to the Fluoride! Now if other chemicals are piggy backing in then that is bad. But that is a separate issue from whether or not the F is safe.

I did a bit of poking around the journal sites. Seems there is strong evidence that F in water DOES have a positive effect on teeth. As to the IQ.. I would want to see more studies as that is not a terribly good one (has lots of holes) But that doesn't seem to be the main issue... if other things are getting into the water along with the F- (as the other half of the salt, or by other means) then that IS a concern.

[BlackPuppy]

I have heard of stories about fluoridated water killing horses, but not dogs. I would really like to give my dogs better water to drink because I'm sure it's not good to be injesting poison. I don't drink or cook with my tap water. And Ohio has a state law requiring all city/treated water to be fluoridated.

[BlackPuppy]

Originally Posted by Dekka

For those who say its not safe.. do you have any studies to back that up?

I had read a long time ago that all the fluoride studies that claimed it was good for teeth were falsified.

I don't know if this site might help you.
http://www.fluoridealert.org/

[Romy]

Originally Posted by Dekka

OK fair enough post (and with you all the way on getting the excess carbs out.. OMG the difference in my teeth since I have gone low carb has been amazing!)

But here is the thing. Fluorine is an element. When you put a fluorine salt into water you get a fluoride (an ion of Fluorine). This is regardless of HOW it gets there. The F- atoms are going to be the same regardless. Of if they are being purified from industrial waste it makes no difference to the Fluoride! Now if other chemicals are piggy backing in then that is bad. But that is a separate issue from whether or not the F is safe.

I did a bit of poking around the journal sites. Seems there is strong evidence that F in water DOES have a positive effect on teeth. As to the IQ.. I would want to see more studies as that is not a terribly good one (has lots of holes) But that doesn't seem to be the main issue... if other things are getting into the water along with the F- (as the other half of the salt, or by other means) then that IS a concern.

The thing about fluoride is that applied topically in the right dose, it strengthens tooth enamel. It's not supposed to be ingested, which is what happens with drinking water. And so many toothpastes are fluoridated now, you really have to make a concerted effort (and fork out extra money) to avoid it.

This link does a good job explaining what happens when fluoride is ingested, both good and bad. Lots of citations too.

http://toxipedia.org/display/toxiped...oride+Toxicity

ETA: The MSDS for Sodium Fluoride lists the dangers of acute toxic exposure.
http://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/21230.htm

On the subject of other stuff piggy backing in with the fluoride treatment, they rarely used Sodium Fluoride salts for water fluoridation. The majority add hexafluorosilicic acid, sodium hexafluorosilicic acid, or silicofluoride. The first two are byproducts of the fertilizer industry.

Here's a study that associates silicofluoride in water supplies with increased lead uptake.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11233755

[JessLough]

Originally Posted by BlackPuppy

I had read a long time ago that all the fluoride studies that claimed it was good for teeth were falsified.

I don't know if this site might help you.
http://www.fluoridealert.org/

Well to be fair, anybody could have written that. I mean, I'm sure I could read somewhere that what you read was falsified.

I really have no opinion on the matter, I just found that amusing.

[Dekka]

Originally Posted by BlackPuppy

I had read a long time ago that all the fluoride studies that claimed it was good for teeth were falsified.

I don't know if this site might help you.
http://www.fluoridealert.org/

Really? WOW studies done by different groups from around the world since the 50's have ALL been falsified?! And no one has looked at the data in all that time to go ...hmmmm

Many of the studies are current and to me (a scientist) seem well run. So I think I would be more likely to believe the many studies vs the one page saying they are all falsified (which is a bit of a stretch of the imagination.. unless you are into conspiracy theories)

I would also like to point out I have had horses here for about 10 years. I have boarded, and raised horses on this property. Every summer we truck CITY water for the horses as our well isn't sufficent. So if it was detrimental I am sure I would have noticed something in the past decade here.

[Lyzelle]

Originally Posted by Dekka

Really? WOW studies done by different groups from around the world since the 50's have ALL been falsified?! And no one has looked at the data in all that time to go ...hmmmm

Many of the studies are current and to me (a scientist) seem well run. So I think I would be more likely to believe the many studies vs the one page saying they are all falsified (which is a bit of a stretch of the imagination.. unless you are into conspiracy theories)

Never know, honestly. Look at the USA's "scientific studies" that heart disease is related to animal fat intake. Or that grain is awesome for you. Or that our medical system is darn near perfect.

It wouldn't hard for me to be convinced that they've done the same with something like Flouride.

[Dekka]

Originally Posted by Romy

The thing about fluoride is that applied topically in the right dose, it strengthens tooth enamel. It's not supposed to be ingested, which is what happens with drinking water. And so many toothpastes are fluoridated now, you really have to make a concerted effort (and fork out extra money) to avoid it.

This link does a good job explaining what happens when fluoride is ingested, both good and bad. Lots of citations too.

http://toxipedia.org/display/toxiped...oride+Toxicity

ETA: The MSDS for Sodium Fluoride lists the dangers of acute toxic exposure.
http://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/21230.htm

On the subject of other stuff piggy backing in with the fluoride treatment, they rarely used Sodium Fluoride salts for water fluoridation. The majority add hexafluorosilicic acid, sodium hexafluorosilicic acid, or silicofluoride. The first two are byproducts of the fertilizer industry.

Here's a study that associates silicofluoride in water supplies with increased lead uptake.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11233755

Interesting. First point though many things have toxic effects when taken to excess. Too much water will kill you pretty fast, and I am not talking drowning.

I am sure you wouldn't tell people not to take vitamin A. Yet it is highly toxic at high levels. Many common chemicals found in fruits and vegetables are also very harmful at high levels. Something in and of its self can be benificial in small doses, yet poison at higher ones. So looking at a very high dose and going "oh look its bad" isn't terribly useful. If its dangerous at near the level its taken in.. then yes that is scary.

I have looked at your links. I find the toxicity page a bit disapointing. It acts as if dental fluourosis is a serious medical condition. Its not. That makes me doubt their other claims. ATM I am not going to look up the studies they are citing but it would be interesting to see if they are indeed pulling out the relevant conclusions. The fact that they have a "fluoride controversy page" with one article for and one article against is highly suspect. Its like having the one wacko scientist (who is the same guy for years who went about claiming that smoking had no link to cancer) get to refute a respected scientist in discussing climate change and giving equal weight to both arguments. If there is a large community of researchers finding one thing and a small handful finding another.. one shouldn't jump to believe the handful.

I do find this interesting..

In 1999, CDC named fluoridation of public drinking water one of 10 great public health achievements of the 20th century.

[MafiaPrincess]

There are places in the US that fluoride occurs naturally in the water table. From reading numerous journal articles all I can really find about toxicity is if one is exposed to decades of way higher levels than should be in water - many people coming into contact with it at workplaces not their water that they have issues.

If a municipality wasn't watching their water and then added fluoride and wasn't paying attention to the amounts.. there could be an issue.