Faulty/Undesirable Colors

[CatStina]

Originally Posted by Flyinsbt

The tan-point pattern is an autosomal recessive. One theory as to why it's forbidden is that the people writing the standard believed that it would dominate the other colors if allowed, but we really don't know why they didn't want it. It's also not a disqualification in the mother country, it's "highly undesirable" (as is liver). Which effectively means it might as well be a DQ, since a dog couldn't be successfully shown in the UK with a trait so listed. The competition is too stiff.

When the US standard was formulated, I believe I've heard that the AKC wanted there to be a disqualification, so the undesirable colors were listed as a DQ. It makes it more in line with the country of origin anyway, since if they were just "undesirable" here, dogs of those colors would still finish.

Blue is a controversial color, since it is not possible for a blue dog to have the black nose required in the standard. It also wasn't in the original standard, it was added in the 1948 revision. It was very rare until recently, when it's become a fad color, to many people's chagrin. A blue Stafford has never finished a UK championship, since the competition there is too stiff for a dog with such an obvious fault to finish. There are plenty of US blue champions, though. Since it's pretty easy to finish a dog here.

Thanks for the info! I knew blues weren't easy to finish in the UK, didn't know that there were blue champions in the US, though. I guess it shouldn't surprise me since Saxon's grandfather, Ch. Yankeestaff Preachin' the Blues, was a blue fawn and a champion. I know it's mean, but I've never really been a huge fan of blues in the breed. Probably because I was involved in Pit Bulls before Staffords and unethical AmBully and Pit Bull breeders advertise it as "rare" and charge more for it, and because of all the health issues that go along with blue-blue breedings.

P.S. Thanks for bringing up the nose, I forgot to mention that nose and eye rims should be black.

[CatStina]

Originally Posted by elegy

Well, Dobes can be black, red, fawn, or blue. Do Rottweilers naturally come in any other colors? I don't know anything about Mastiffs, but I would expect they don't come in piebald because piebald does not occur in the breed.

I understand with some breeds that only come in xyz colors because those are the colors genetically possible. What I don't understand is why certain *naturally occurring* colors are not permissible.

I'm sorry, I must not have been clear. When I say B&T, I mean tan point markings not specifically black with tan points.

[Laurelin]

Originally Posted by Kat09Tails

As long as the leather is black no one cares what the color is. They are however a marked breed - mismarks aren't really frowned on but they are part of the process.

Mismarks happen but you can't really show them. AKc DQs a solid white dog and faults dogs with white ears or over the eyes enough that you don't see them shown. However split faces and solid white faces happen often enough in the breed. This one I get because of concerns about deafness.

I've seen blue and liver leather happen in the breed too, and that's also faulted. Leather other than black is severely faulted in the AKc. No idea why. Doesn't occur often in the breed though.

Solid colors (ruby, black and tan, solid black) used to occur in papillons but were written out of the standards seemingly after the color vanished in the breed. I am not sure why they were written out. I've asked breeders I know and no one has a good explanation. Two theories I've heard. 1. Solids were seen as evidence of a cross to something (maybe pom or other spitz) that caused the erect ears. That makes no sense to me since other spaniels often come in ruby and black and tan and solid black. 2. Solids were accidentally bred out in favor of the flashier white marked dogs. Since piebald is recessive all dogs kept were piebald and no solid genes remained. Honestly, I have no idea.

End result though is now all paps are piebald and solid is genetically impossible in the modern breed.

[Laurelin]

Shelties come in sable, sable merle, black tri, black bi, blue merle tri, blue merle bi, double merle, and color headed white (piebald of any of the other colors). Tris being with tan and white and bicolors just white and the color. More than 50% white is DQ'd in the AKC probably because of the concern with double merles and their health issues. UKC will allow color headed whites to show, I am pretty sure. I think it's a shame that CHWs can't show as I think it was just the thought that white = bad and people didn't understand that CHWs and double merles were different.

I've seen a few nonstandard colors like brindle before. There's always suspicion that the brindles aren't pure but I don't know.

[Flyinsbt]

Originally Posted by CatStina

Thanks for the info! I knew blues weren't easy to finish in the UK, didn't know that there were blue champions in the US, though. I guess it shouldn't surprise me since Saxon's grandfather, Ch. Yankeestaff Preachin' the Blues, was a blue fawn and a champion. I know it's mean, but I've never really been a huge fan of blues in the breed. Probably because I was involved in Pit Bulls before Staffords and unethical AmBully and Pit Bull breeders advertise it as "rare" and charge more for it, and because of all the health issues that go along with blue-blue breedings.

P.S. Thanks for bringing up the nose, I forgot to mention that nose and eye rims should be black.

I don't like the blues/blue fawn/blue brindles in Staffords. The look does not appeal to me. And the blue Staffords have been exploited in the UK like the blue APBTs are in the US.

What's hilarious to me is that the big proponents of "athletic" Staffs in the UK, who claim to like the original, 1935 Standard (because they like the taller dogs, since the original standard had the height range at 15-18"), often tend to have blues. Which were not in that original standard they claim to favor.

[Gypsydals]

Originally Posted by Lyzelle

What breed?

Ohh good lord, I can't believe I didn't add what breed. OPPS sorry guys.
It is Dalmatians.

[Gypsydals]

Originally Posted by Lyzelle

Lol, I wasn't sure. I didn't know Dalmatians could come in any other color besides Black and White.

Lyzelle, they do although over here it is pretty rare. I think the long haired dalmatians occur more often than the "other" colors here.
But here is a link that shows you the different colors and what not. There is quite a few different pages too.

http://paisleydals.com/color.html

[MericoX]

Schnauzers: White, parti, liver-coated dogs are DQ
Poodles: Parti colors are not showable in AKC, merles are not accepted (nor should they occur). Sable I also think aren't registerable.

[Pops2]

Originally Posted by elegy

Well, Dobes can be black, red, fawn, or blue. Do Rottweilers naturally come in any other colors? I don't know anything about Mastiffs, but I would expect they don't come in piebald because piebald does not occur in the breed.

rotties came in solid red & wolf grey as well as the black & red pointed. alledgedly if you're in the know, you can find solid reds in eatern europe as working dogs but the wolf grey is extinct as far as i know.

Originally Posted by elegy

I understand with some breeds that only come in xyz colors because those are the colors genetically possible. What I don't understand is why certain *naturally occurring* colors are not permissible.

sometimes it is health related like merles, whites & dilutes, other times it's just group preference w/ no actual grounding in working ability or breed history.

[BlackPuppy]

Permitted colors for Dutch Shepherds are gold and silver brindle. However, "yellow" dogs still are born from time to time. Most commonly in the long-hair. In The Netherlands, the yellow will be given a pedigree, but have a "NEK", "Niet Erkende Kleur" (not recognized color) on the pedigree and no breeding is allowed.

A yellow long-hair and a gold brindle.



Also a small amount of white is allowed on the chest, very small.