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  #81  
Old 10-14-2012, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyfalcon View Post
Don't go by a fixed difference at all. 12 vs 16 (4 inches) is the same percent difference as 20 vs 26 (6 inch).
In USDAA, the heights are 12-16-22-26. So no, not the same percent difference, and as I already described, the potential variance between dog's height and jump height is, percentage wise, at it's greatest for the 22" height. Which I don't think is fair. It may not be an issue for me, but that still won't make it really fair.

I don't have a good workable solution for it while sticking with the USDAA philosophy of not having dogs jump under their shoulder height (my best guess would be to add a height and change them to 10-14-18-22-26, with the cutoff for 18" being 17", cutoff for 14" being 13.5", and cutoff for 10 being 10", but that's a big change, would require a lot of equipment modification, and I doubt they'd go for it), but fortunately, it's not my problem to solve.
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  #82  
Old 10-14-2012, 06:31 PM
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Obviously, the answer to the original question is "YES!", there are certain breed tendencies with jumping.

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Originally Posted by Shai View Post
Well I mean there's not really one answer lol. There's a reason there are whole seminars and books and DVDs on this stuff. What I've learned is based partially on that, and mostly on spending thousands of hours watching dogs run agility.

And to every rule there is just one exception after another.
Very true!

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Originally Posted by Shai View Post
There are a lot of poodles in agility but I've never personally seen a Standard who jumps well. Between the short back and the (usually) ramrod straight fronts they just sort of fling themselves over.
My experience with Standards is that they have a very exaggerated, flashy looking jumping style that is not terribly functional. I see a lot of Dobes who jump similarly.

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Originally Posted by Shai View Post
Belgians in general seem to jump big and have trouble turning over the bars. Probably the same reason they are so good at the big jumps required in some of the protection sports and dock diving. Many seem really straight and stiff...from pastern to back to front/rear angles.
Belgians can have a few issues with jumping. They are a breed prone to ETS, some jump flat and some are just...awkward jumpers. But there are some who are beautiful, efficient jumpers too.


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Originally Posted by Shai View Post
GSDs are the opposite extreme. Most are so overangulated for agility and with such soft pasterns and such that is undermines their stability and ability to get off the ground or land safely. Probably 90% of the GSDs I see run preferred (4" lower jump heights) for this reason, and they still struggle.
I don't think it is fair to say the majority of GSDs are overangulated with weak pasterns. That is pretty much an issue with showlines and not any other type of GSD. However, I agree that those dogs tend to struggle with jumps even in preferred. I have known more than one to wash out of agility because they just couldn't manage the jumping requirements, even jumping only 20". I think that is sad, for a breed that is supposed to be very athletic. That said, you wouldn't find those things to be an issue with a nice moderate working line GSD. I don't see many of those dogs in agility around here though.

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Originally Posted by Shai View Post
One of the only breeds I can think of that seems to be as flexible on an agility course as BCs are the Shelties. There are reasons these breeds are so common and it's not just the biddability and such. They have long (but not too long) flexible backs.
I have always thought it was a bit strange that the breed that many feel are best for agility (BCs) are often not naturally talented jumpers. Yes they do have the flexibility but they also can be prone to very flat jumping and ETS. There are a lot of would be great BCs that just can't keep the bars up consistently. And around here, there seems to be a lot of Shelties with signs of ETS even at the highest levels. That isn't to say those breeds aren't good for agilty. Obviously many people have achieved the highest levels of success with them. It is just to say that no breed is without their potential drawbacks in terms of ability. And a good reason to pay attention to jump training and style, no matter what kind of dog you have.

I admit, one thing I looked at with PyrSheps was jumping ability and tendencies towards having jumping issues. I loved that PyrSheps often tend to be really good jumpers naturally. That doesn't mean I didn't put thought into jump training for Savvy though, it's just nice that jumping has always been pretty easy for him. I have been practicing at 16" and 20" lately because I really don't know what he will measure into and 20" will certainly not be an issue for him if that is where we end up.

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Originally Posted by Shai View Post
It's not just BCs though...it's just the people who've been in it long enough to get by with this stuff often have BCs...I can think of several "off breed" folks who've been in it a long time who have ummm questionable measurements. It's always interesting when we're first in for the 24's so I'm at the gate with a bunch of 20s (not counting Preferred dogs) and my FCR's the same height or shorter than a lot of them...granted her measurement is also questionable (but high...she was measured as an overly excited bouncy pup, imagine that...) but I don't think she's any shorter than 22" even...which is the tallest allowed 20" jumping height...
LOL I know how you feel! Whim measured to jump 24" at one trial and she looked so tiny next to all the other 24" dogs.

Between Whim's unofficial AKC measures, her official measurements and her CPE measurement there was a 2 1/2" gap. CPE she measured at 20 1/2, she got a 23" measurement once in AKC, a 22 1/2, a 21" and two 22". So you can't assume all questionable measurements are political. Her first VMO measurement was 22 1/2", which bumped us into 24" for that trial and another she was measured at 23"...which is definitely wrong. Her last two were right at 22" which is probably most accurate (that judge seriously took no time at all with the measurement either). I always got her at 22" or just under. The last two VMOs were super nice and really worked with me to get her measurements. Not because they were being political because I'm not any body in agility but because that asked if she was close to a cut off and I said yes. I greatly appreciate their willingness to take their time, get her settled and make sure she was standing properly. The way they did it, they had me tell her to stay on the table and walk away so she was watching me. It worked really well. Hopefully I get some patient VMOs for Savvy too!

FWIW I'm not whining. I was ok with her jumping 24" to, if that was what she truly measured into. The biggest advantage of her measuring into 20" is getting to jump 16" when she's old and in preferred

I tend to think that all things being equal it's ideal to have a dog on the high end of the cut off for their height rather than the low end. But of course, there are many dogs who are at the low end of their hieght division who do really well too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
To play devils advocate.. why shouldn't the jump effort be an actual effort? I can tell you my sub 12 inch dogs can easily jump 16 inches.. Why should a healthy dog have an issue?
I do think USDAA should have breed exemptions since they tend to have lower cut-offs for each height. Ziggy is over 12" and would have to jump 16" in USDAA. He definitely can jump 16" and has but I'm just not sure jumping a dwarf dog at 16" at the speed he runs over many years is reasonable. He jumps 12" in AKC and other than having typical crazy dog bar knocking sometimes, he's never had any issues at that height. It really doesn't matter, we don't do USDAA because there are very few trials close to home.

So saying because your JRTs are suited at 12" to jump 16" is sort of only taking into account a certain body type. My friends have a tiny JRT girl who just barely measured to jump 16" in USDAA and did so without any issues, even with bad knees. There is a world of difference between that dog's build and Ziggy's though. He's perfectly healthy and sound but his legs are probably shorter than most JRTs of the same height.

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Originally Posted by Shai View Post
CPE is similar except that I think any judge can measure. My information may be outdated though.
Yes any judge can measure in CPE. I'm not sure how they handle if there is a dispute about height though.

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Originally Posted by elegy View Post
I am very curious if he'd jump the same way if he'd never played flyball. And it makes me unsure what I should do with young mister Bean.
I'd probably teach Bean all about jumping first before doing much flyball jumping. Make sure he's already a good jumper before introducing him to the fast, flat, predictable style that is required in flyball. I know you roll your eyes at the idea that people think flyball causes problems with jumping but...well people tend to think that after seeing many dogs who are primarily flyball dogs struggle with jumping in agility. Not that dogs with no flyball background never have issues but flyball doesn't seem to stack the odds in your favor if you have a fast, driven dog who already has tendencies to jump flat.
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  #83  
Old 10-14-2012, 06:53 PM
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I've watched a bunch of videos on ETS and I still am not sure about it. Of course it's a concern with a sheltie or a bc in particular. To me the dogs 'with ETS' just look like they're very high and incredibly fast. How do they determine if it's ETS or if it's just a dog that is out of control?
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  #84  
Old 10-14-2012, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
I've watched a bunch of videos on ETS and I still am not sure about it. Of course it's a concern with a sheltie or a bc in particular. To me the dogs 'with ETS' just look like they're very high and incredibly fast. How do they determine if it's ETS or if it's just a dog that is out of control?
To me, ETS looks pretty specific. The dog is taking off very early, the arch of their jump happens prior to the actual jump although some dogs with it don't knock bars or don't always knock bars. It's not always just that though. Dogs who have it tend to lower themselves and hesitate in a certain way prior to the jumps. It really looks like they are trying to judge if they should go for it. It's not just the bad making a bad choice because they are too wound, it's fairly consistent. Many do better at lower jumps, in terms of they can compensate better when they aren't having to clear a higher jump. Some dogs can compensate quite well, others get very stressy and worried about it. Some dogs who have it get to a point where they are stutter stepping and/or hesitating very badly at every jump. Also you can often see the same lowering/hesitation/stutter stepping prior to them taking the Aframe or getting on the table too.

This explains what ETS is and with videos that show what it looks like. Especially useful are the ones that show how it tends to progress over time. The one of Freeze, you can really see her lower herself especially prior to the tire.

http://www.awesomepaws.us/?page_id=416

You can also see it really clearly with this dog:

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fu...feature_id=115

And it is really, really obvious with this dog:

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fu...feature_id=116

And this shows it pretty well too and also shows how it can affect jumping onto the table:

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fu...feature_id=118
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  #85  
Old 10-14-2012, 08:01 PM
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Yeah I've watched those before. I definitely see the jumping problems. I'm just confused on how they think it's genetic. Also, couldn't the reason you see it more in shelties and border collies just be because those two breeds are so popular in agility?
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  #86  
Old 10-14-2012, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
Yeah I've watched those before. I definitely see the jumping problems. I'm just confused on how they think it's genetic. Also, couldn't the reason you see it more in shelties and border collies just be because those two breeds are so popular in agility?
It is believed to be genetic because many dogs who display it have close relatives who display it as well.
Things like what Nancy Gyes wrote about in her blog on the issue are fairly common when the dog's close relatives are known and also compete:

"Then I had my first border collie ETS experience. I rescued three 8 week old border collie pups from the pound and we kept one ourselves. Her name is Fly, and my husband Jim put a MAD title on her before we placed her with her current owner, Laura Manchester Derrett. Like all typical ETS dogs, the problems were not apparent in the beginning. We thought we could “fix” her funny jumping which actually did not look funny at all until she was about 2 years old. Her siblings had similar jumping issues. This was my first clue 10 years ago that this disease is hereditary and not ever fixable. Siblings with a similar jumping issue means that the dogs were born with the problem, there was nothing we did, and nothing we could do to fix the problem." http://nancygyes.wordpress.com/2011/...ollie-studies/

So while it's not yet "proven" to be genetic, it seems obvious there is a genetic predisposition. There is research in the works to find a genetic marker for the issue in BCs. At this point, I'd say it's fairly accepted there is a genetic predisposition among most people breeding BCs for agility. And given that there does seem to be at least a genetic predisposition, no I don't think popularity is the only reason it is thought to be an issue in certain breeds. Belgians are not hugely popular in agility but it's associated with them as well. There are only a handful of Belgians that trial in my area compared to the number of BCs and Shelties and some of them have ETS or show signs of it.
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  #87  
Old 10-14-2012, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Aleron View Post

I do think USDAA should have breed exemptions since they tend to have lower cut-offs for each height. Ziggy is over 12" and would have to jump 16" in USDAA. He definitely can jump 16" and has but I'm just not sure jumping a dwarf dog at 16" at the speed he runs over many years is reasonable. He jumps 12" in AKC and other than having typical crazy dog bar knocking sometimes, he's never had any issues at that height. It really doesn't matter, we don't do USDAA because there are very few trials close to home.

So saying because your JRTs are suited at 12" to jump 16" is sort of only taking into account a certain body type. My friends have a tiny JRT girl who just barely measured to jump 16" in USDAA and did so without any issues, even with bad knees. There is a world of difference between that dog's build and Ziggy's though. He's perfectly healthy and sound but his legs are probably shorter than most JRTs of the same height.

There is always performance or what ever USDAA calls it. JRTs have a pretty moderate body type, neither light nor heavy. But yes there are dogs that will fall out of moderate canine morphology that were not built to jump. But then again should we make course times really slow for the heavy dogs? There has to be SOME level of physical proficiency required... And there is always an option to move your dog down anyway.

OT though.. I wouldn't say your friends JRT is tiny if its over 12 inches (even if barely) Dekka, Seren and Kat all measured under 12. (Seren is bang on 11 inches) the breed standard is split into overs and unders.. with the dividing line being 12.5 inches. Scandal was barely in breed standard at just over 10 inches. JRTs can be quite small and still within breed standard.

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  #88  
Old 10-14-2012, 08:59 PM
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This thread is starting to make me paranoid about Pan's jumping. I really hope she doesn't have ETS.
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:16 PM
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This thread is starting to make me paranoid about Pan's jumping. I really hope she doesn't have ETS.
Waaaay too early to think that, and I didn't see anything other than an exuberant young dog. Relax


I really wish I could find a 3-vid series an agility trainer posted a while ago...with the question to analyze the dogs' jumping styles...they were such perfect depictions...
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  #90  
Old 10-14-2012, 09:22 PM
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Ack, sorry! I didn't mean to make anyone worried.

There's not much you can do though is there? I mean for ETS. I've been looking at the videos of the breeders I'm interested in. Youtubing as many agility clips as I can. But none of the breeders are breeding specifically FOR agility so there's only a small sampling of the dogs to look at.
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