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  #41  
Old 10-13-2012, 11:11 PM
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Beanie Beanie is offline
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Originally Posted by Shai View Post
It's not just BCs though...it's just the people who've been in it long enough to get by with this stuff often have BCs...I can think of several "off breed" folks who've been in it a long time who have ummm questionable measurements. It's always interesting when we're first in for the 24's so I'm at the gate with a bunch of 20s (not counting Preferred dogs) and my FCR's the same height or shorter than a lot of them...granted her measurement is also questionable (but high...she was measured as an overly excited bouncy pup, imagine that...) but I don't think she's any shorter than 22" even...which is the tallest allowed 20" jumping height...
Good point. I can also think of a few non-BCs I know with questionable measurements... =P

A judge stopped the trial once because he wanted to make sure Auggie was running the correct height. Not because he thought he was too tall... because he thought he was too SMALL. He thought they had screwed up the run order. *sigh* No, that's actually what he measured into...
Luckily they brought back challenging the height card, but you can only do it once now. Thankfully, both of Auggie's challenge measurements were right at 14", so we got a new height card and I was able to drop him down.

Supposedly if people complain the judge can call for a measurement on a dog, but I've never actually heard of that happening.
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  #42  
Old 10-13-2012, 11:18 PM
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What counts as an 'off breed'?

Thanks for all the height measuring links. I suppose that makes sense... as long as everyone is honest.
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  #43  
Old 10-13-2012, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
What counts as an 'off breed'?

Thanks for all the height measuring links. I suppose that makes sense... as long as everyone is honest.
Non-BC or -Sheltie lol.



2012 Breed Breakdown for NAC. I bolded the top 5.

Afghan Hound 1
Airedale Terrier 2
All American Dog / Mixed Breed 12
American Eskimo Dog 2
American Foxhound 1
Australian Cattle Dog 14
Australian Shepherd 62
Beagle 7
Bedlington Terrier 1
Belgian Malinois 2
Belgian Sheepdog 7
Belgian Tervuren 11
Bernese Mountain Dog 3
Bolognese 1
Border Collie 227
Border Terrier 9
Boston Terrier 6
Bouvier des Flandres 1
Boxer 1
Briard 2
Brittany 3
Brussels Griffon 1
Cairn Terrier 5
Cardigan Welsh Corgi 6
Cavalier King Charles Spaniel 12
Chihuahua 1
Chinese Crested 10
Cocker Spaniel 19
Collie 7
Coton de Tulear 2
Dachshund 2
Dalmatian 1
Doberman Pinscher 2
English Cocker Spaniel 3
English Setter 2
English Springer Spaniel 5
Flat-Coated Retriever 7
French Bulldog 2
German Shepherd Dog 7
German Shorthaired Pointer 5
Golden Retriever 49
Greyhound 1
Havanese 4
Icelandic Sheepdog 3
Irish Setter 2
Irish Terrier 1
Keeshond 4
Kerry Blue Terrier 2
Labrador Retriever 20
Lhasa Apso 1
Lowchen 1
Maltese 2
Manchester Terrier 2
Mastiff 1
Miniature American Shepherd 1
Miniature Pinscher 1
Miniature Schnauzer 15
Norfolk Terrier 1
Norwich Terrier 1
Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever 8
Papillon 42
Parson Russell Terrier 13
Pembroke Welsh Corgi 25
Petit Basset Griffon Vendeen 1
Pomeranian 7
Poodle 37
Portuguese Water Dog 6
Pug 6
Pumi 4
Pyrenean Shepherd 5
Rat Terrier 6
Rhodesian Ridgeback 3
Rottweiler 2
Russell Terrier 3
Schipperke 1
Shetland Sheepdog 120
Shih Tzu 4
Siberian Husky 4
Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier 1
Spinone Italiano 1
Staffordshire Bull Terrier 1
Standard Schnauzer 5
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  #44  
Old 10-13-2012, 11:21 PM
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I'm probably going to the bad place, but I would do pretty much anything to get Gusto in the height class I want. I've had a few Names tell me "Oh, I could get him in 16", and I've been tempted to say "then you please go hold him for the judge".

We'll see. He's so hard to measure, but he's pretty close to the cut off. I'm hoping he'll squeeze under, and you can bet I'm asking around to see which judges I need to avoid (I'm not looking for someone to lie, but I want to stay away from the ones who lose their patience quickly rather than giving the dog time to settle). The world will not end if I have another performance dog. But I really don't want to run my 16.25" dog at 22".

Quote:
Right now he's jumping 20". I don't like how he jumps at 20", which tends to be with his head up, flat, and landing almost four-footed.
We have someone in my classes who has a BC that, I think, is similarly bred to your guys. She jumps him at 26" in AKC even though he measures for 20" strictly because he's a much better jumper at that height. I think when you get those crazy athletic types, they get lazy over the little jumps. I don't know what it would mean for him as far as his injuries, but I certainly wouldn't hesitate to just jump him 26" in any venue from a training standpoint.
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  #45  
Old 10-13-2012, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Shai View Post
Non-BC or -Sheltie lol.



2012 Breed Breakdown for NAC. I bolded the top 5.

Afghan Hound 1
Airedale Terrier 2
All American Dog / Mixed Breed 12
American Eskimo Dog 2
American Foxhound 1
Australian Cattle Dog 14
Australian Shepherd 62
Beagle 7
Bedlington Terrier 1
Belgian Malinois 2
Belgian Sheepdog 7
Belgian Tervuren 11
Bernese Mountain Dog 3
Bolognese 1
Border Collie 227
Border Terrier 9
Boston Terrier 6
Bouvier des Flandres 1
Boxer 1
Briard 2
Brittany 3
Brussels Griffon 1
Cairn Terrier 5
Cardigan Welsh Corgi 6
Cavalier King Charles Spaniel 12
Chihuahua 1
Chinese Crested 10
Cocker Spaniel 19
Collie 7
Coton de Tulear 2
Dachshund 2
Dalmatian 1
Doberman Pinscher 2
English Cocker Spaniel 3
English Setter 2
English Springer Spaniel 5
Flat-Coated Retriever 7
French Bulldog 2
German Shepherd Dog 7
German Shorthaired Pointer 5
Golden Retriever 49
Greyhound 1
Havanese 4
Icelandic Sheepdog 3
Irish Setter 2
Irish Terrier 1
Keeshond 4
Kerry Blue Terrier 2
Labrador Retriever 20
Lhasa Apso 1
Lowchen 1
Maltese 2
Manchester Terrier 2
Mastiff 1
Miniature American Shepherd 1
Miniature Pinscher 1
Miniature Schnauzer 15
Norfolk Terrier 1
Norwich Terrier 1
Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever 8
Papillon 42
Parson Russell Terrier 13
Pembroke Welsh Corgi 25
Petit Basset Griffon Vendeen 1
Pomeranian 7
Poodle 37
Portuguese Water Dog 6
Pug 6
Pumi 4
Pyrenean Shepherd 5
Rat Terrier 6
Rhodesian Ridgeback 3
Rottweiler 2
Russell Terrier 3
Schipperke 1
Shetland Sheepdog 120
Shih Tzu 4
Siberian Husky 4
Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier 1
Spinone Italiano 1
Staffordshire Bull Terrier 1
Standard Schnauzer 5
Yay papillons! All 5 of those breeds are breeds I've owned/heavily considered. lol
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  #46  
Old 10-13-2012, 11:33 PM
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Shai Shai is offline
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Originally Posted by BostonBanker View Post
I'm probably going to the bad place, but I would do pretty much anything to get Gusto in the height class I want. I've had a few Names tell me "Oh, I could get him in 16", and I've been tempted to say "then you please go hold him for the judge".

We'll see. He's so hard to measure, but he's pretty close to the cut off. I'm hoping he'll squeeze under, and you can bet I'm asking around to see which judges I need to avoid (I'm not looking for someone to lie, but I want to stay away from the ones who lose their patience quickly rather than giving the dog time to settle). The world will not end if I have another performance dog. But I really don't want to run my 16.25" dog at 22".
Well you DID say he jumps big...

It's frustrating to have the Little Dog in the class. From a competition standpoint but even more from a longevity of career standpoint. Mira's RIGHT on the line...she's been measured at 22 even several times by people other than me just to see where she is...because they yell at me for jumping her bigger than she needs to...but on the day she was measured for real she measured big and bouncy and I only get one chance to challenge so I'm dragging my feet. I've had people say, oh that's great you don't have to run against the BCs! And I just don't get that...it's better for my dog to jump 20 so I would if I could...and heck if they think the top dogs are in the 20" class then you bet I want to run against them...I'd rather place 10th against the best than 1st in any other class if that's how it stacks up...but that's me I guess. And even for those who do believe that...as others have pointed out, BCs are showing up more and more in 16" and 24"...we run against them fairly regularly and it's fun. Fortunately we have some of the top 24" dogs in the country around here so there is plenty of competition no matter where we fall
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  #47  
Old 10-14-2012, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by BostonBanker View Post
We'll see. He's so hard to measure, but he's pretty close to the cut off. I'm hoping he'll squeeze under, and you can bet I'm asking around to see which judges I need to avoid (I'm not looking for someone to lie, but I want to stay away from the ones who lose their patience quickly rather than giving the dog time to settle). The world will not end if I have another performance dog. But I really don't want to run my 16.25" dog at 22".
I think there's something to be said for going to a judge who is willing to be patient; I don't begrudge anybody that because that was my problem with Auggie. He needed a judge who was going to give him time to settle on the table. The very first official measurement he got, the VMO was giving him time, and right before she was about to say "I think he's just over 14"," he relaxed and she got his measurement just under 14".
That said, his second measurement was under a VMO who is notorious for low measurements on BCs and high measurements on anything else. When people would ask about Auggie's jump height, all I had to do was say this VMOs name, and people immediately understood. She measured him over 15". Ummm. No.

I did like Shai and I waited a good while on Auggie's challenge measurements until I knew the VMO was not only a patient person but had PLENTY of time. The second VMO I had do his challenge wasn't even judging the trial, she was just there doing measurements. She was done running her dogs and I asked if she had time... didn't even tell her what I was hoping for because I wanted to come by it honestly, didn't even mention Auggie's gimpy feet. She took her time with him and got him right at 14" which was what we needed.

I definitely think there's a difference between people who have borderline dogs versus people who... work the system I guess you could say. Like, if I were at a trial and they called to measure all dogs, I wouldn't go "WELP" and just pack up Auggie and leave. I would have given it a shot, because I know he CAN honestly measure into the 12" jump height. I think there's a distinction.

I kinda think the USDAA jump heights suck though. A dog just over 16" jumping 22" is insane to me.


Payton actually is also right on the line of 16", which isn't a problem for agility (since it's AKC city around here so that's all we do), but is a problem for confo as 16" is the cut off for shelties. Auggie's breeder told me he probably won't get looks unless we put a handler on him, because he's almost too tall, and if they wicket him he might bomb out depending. And I really don't want to put a handler on my dog, honestly... I wanted to owner handle him. Soooooo he may never set foot in the confo ring because of that. =P
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  #48  
Old 10-14-2012, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by BostonBanker View Post
We have someone in my classes who has a BC that, I think, is similarly bred to your guys. She jumps him at 26" in AKC even though he measures for 20" strictly because he's a much better jumper at that height. I think when you get those crazy athletic types, they get lazy over the little jumps. I don't know what it would mean for him as far as his injuries, but I certainly wouldn't hesitate to just jump him 26" in any venue from a training standpoint.
Yeah, I know his breeder does that with some of her dogs (not all). I just... need to find somebody to give me a good answer on jump heights and safety and his injury. His rehab vet is fine with my jumping him up as long as he stays comfortable and I increase him gradually, but she doesn't see a lot of sport dogs.

I think Bean is heavier-boned than Steve and I'm not sure I'd jump him up if it comes to that. But Steven has the body-type for it-- light-boned and narrow and racey.
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  #49  
Old 10-14-2012, 08:21 AM
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I definitely think there's a difference between people who have borderline dogs versus people who... work the system I guess you could say. Like, if I were at a trial and they called to measure all dogs, I wouldn't go "WELP" and just pack up Auggie and leave. I would have given it a shot, because I know he CAN honestly measure into the 12" jump height. I think there's a distinction.

I kinda think the USDAA jump heights suck though. A dog just over 16" jumping 22" is insane to me.

That's a great way of wording it re: jump height measuring. And it really is hard when you have a borderline dog because you want the measurement to reflect reality...but reality is that on some days your dog will measure one way and others your dog will measure the other way. They are both and depending on the condition of the dog and how excited the dog is, they can easily and legitimately +/- an inch.

When Mira relaxes she's 22" even. The problem is that Mira rarely relaxes and ESPECIALLY not at an agility trial where I swear even when she's sleeping in her crate she's excited. No she's not a screaming banshee or anything but she knows what a trial is and she is up and ready to work. Which is exactly the environment she needs to get measured in :headdesk:. Plus she has these ridiculous neck muscles from retrieving so if the judge is rushed or not paying attention they can slap that wicket down just a half in forward onto her neck and miss the withers, and that makes her over 23". And it's not hard to do...I did it myself once when checking her height quickly and nearly fell over in shock lol. Then realized that with her thick retriever skin, coat, and the muscle I wasn't right *on* the withers.

And yeah the thought that Webster would jump 22" in USDAA...Webster who weighs a whopping 20lbs...that's just nuts. In some ways I like that in USDAA everyone jumps over their shoulder height...in AKC there is just a huge difference in job requirement for dog who jump under vs. over their shoulder height...ie. dogs at the top vs. the bottom of their height category...but the 16 to 22" gap is just way too big in USDAA and is rather ridiculous imo.
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  #50  
Old 10-14-2012, 10:10 AM
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Is his flat jumping style something that's my fault? Maybe. Is it something I can fix? I dunno. We've done a lot of one jump rewarding at the base of the jump to encourage a nice jumping position work since I started him jumping. Probably flyball ruined him *eyeroll*
I know what you are saying by flyball, eyeroll

but there is a good chance he jumps long and flat due to flyball. Its not a bad thing at all. Its what one NEEDS in a flyball dog. And it has its uses in agility (though not landing 4 on the floor, silly Steve) I think a good portion of it is build, but the rest is how the dog practises jumping most often, esp when young and learning.

Is it fixable, I don't know. But I have noticed a lot of dogs who are very good at flyball who jump agility jumps very long and flat.
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