Returning a dog to the breeder - Questions/Rant

[Romy]

A little late, but about sight hound muscling:

IMO, it's okay for a sight hound to be on the thin (NOT emaciated) side IF the dog is getting adequate food, is well muscled, has a healthy coat, and got that way through exercise vs. being starved down.

If the muscles or coat are lacking, then you don't have a fit dog. You have a dog that is coping with not enough food and it needs more.

Their hip bones sit higher than their spines. You really shouldn't conceal the hip bones completely unless your dog is super muscular and can build up muscle over them. This is where hands on is important, because if you feel the space between the hips, you shouldn't be able to easily feel vertebrae. That should be muscle.

From what I understand about their muscles (someone correct me if I'm wrong) they've got a different ratio of fast twitch/slow twitch muscle fibers than other breed groups.

Also, I've noticed whippets and greys bulk up a lot more than zois, sloughi, and salukis. I don't know if that's because the first two were bred more for sprinting and the last three more for long distance hauls. I do know borzois are supposed to have "slab" muscling, where the muscles are flattish. Supposedly that helps with oxygen delivery and endurance. Kaia and Strider don't really bulk up, but are extremely toned (Kaia has a six pack and I didn't know that was possible in dogs, lol).

It's really hard to find pics of racing greys showing their racing weight, because most wear capes during runs.



I can't really give an opinion on Bukra from photos, especially since his condition varies a bit from photo to photo and salukis appear the have the same sort of slab muscling you see on borzois. It would really take someone with experience to put their hands on him and see how he is right now, and that's why I feel his breeder should know so he can check on him if he wants.

[Doberluv]

Originally Posted by Xandra

I am not even close to an expert, but I have seen LOTS of pics of salukis that must be about thin. Look at the haunch muscles, the way the vertebrae are mostly encased in muscle. And keep in mind that the dog is in motion and panting.







ETA 2 of sloughis



I personally am not up for making a declaration on her saluki's condition (maybe all of the above are just too skinny) but something to keep in mind.

ETA and yes, allowing that fila pup to get to that point of emaciation could very well have shortened his lifespan. A body isn't some totally elastic thing that you can just neglect to the brink of death without consequence. Especially with a growing animal. For all we know that pup has organ damage and reduced function.

Is it just me? imho, I think they look terribly thin. I don't care what they're suppose to be like. I don't like every single rib being so clearly defined and visible. Are they just trying to make them lighter weight so they can run faster? Couldn't they keep just a little more meat on their sides?

[Red Chrome]

I did notify Bukra's breeder.

[Romy]

Originally Posted by Doberluv

Is it just me? imho, I think they look terribly thin. I don't care what they're suppose to be like. I don't like every single rib being so clearly defined and visible. Are they just trying to make them lighter weight so they can run faster? Couldn't they keep just a little more meat on their sides?

The thing with slab muscling, is the muscle is there over the ribs it's just really flat. Combine that with a short coat and thin skin, you can see them. Especially when the dogs are running around. What you need to look at is the spine and the muscle in the rear.

It's a lot easier to tell the difference when your hands are on the dog. Kaia spent about a week waaay too thin when her puppies had a growth spurt and I was cramming food into her to help her keep up. There was no muscle, and oh my gosh it felt horrific to me. You can definitely feel the difference, and when you're used to seeing it, you can see the difference too. The space between the ribs is way more sunken on an underweight sight hound.

Here:
This azawakh looks ribby but is healthy. If you look along the spine it's very muscular. The loin is very defined, and the rear is highly muscled.


Compared to this azawakh. This picture was taken in the Sahel where it's living on a subsistence diet. Look at the muscle wasting in its rear and the sunken gaps between ribs. The loin area along his spine is sunken and wasted too. I wish there was pics of his people because I bet they aren't much better off. This is surviving, but it's not ideal or healthy.

[Doberluv]

Thanks for that explanation Romy. I can totally see the difference between those two dogs. That second one is pathetic and weak looking. Whew...you made me feel better about the norm in these dogs. LOL.

[ACooper]

Yes thank you Romy.

All the breed standard definitions in the world did not make me understand exactly what I'm looking at/for in these dogs. Like doberluv, I thought they ALL looked painfully thin and under nurished.......even though it seemed to be the norm, I didn't care for it (thinking it was cruel!)

Your descriptions with the example photos of good and bad really sheds light on it for me

[Bahamutt99]

Originally Posted by Psyfalcon

If anyone wants to know what a sighthound should look like, find pictures of the top racing greyhounds. Some ribs show, yes, sometimes some hip bone, but they're usually pretty muscled over.

Oh, the Google. It kills me with awesome.








I don't know if there is a significant difference between the condition of Salukis and Greys, but these dogs are fab.

[Barbara!]

This thread makes me absolutely sick to my stomach.

Moderators,

WHY exactly is this thread still open? It seems it has gotten to the bottom of the initial issue, so it needs to be closed. Wasn't that the reason for leaving it open? To wait until "proof" was found so that it could be publicly announced and make everyone aware. That purpose has been fulfilled, and the last ten pages are just garbage and trashing of someone personally. The members here seem to get a huge kick out of the drama and it's pathetic. Like flies to a hunk of rotting meat.


This thread went from "Oh I'm sure it wasn't intentional" and "I'm sure Teal is a great person" to "She starved the dog on purpose, she's an animal abuser" and "Let's try to get her other dogs taken away, she probably abuses them too!". You're all getting each other worked up like a savage mob. Going from docile to murderous in a minute.

Her other dogs are none of anyone's business. Bukra, for example, has been seen by his breeder on many occasions. I don't think his BREEDER has an issue with his weight, so get off your "I'm an expert on Saluki's and I think he's too thin" high horse...his breeder doesn't have an issue with how he is kept. That's the person that matters, correct?

Also, many of you are griping about how Tahlz and I can't be sure of her dogs condition because we have never seen her in person... Well neither have many (any?) of you. You have just as much proof to stand on as we do. You are some people on an Internet forum. You're not detectives, you have Google.

Many people have asked for an explanation for what Teal thinks happened...she gave you one. She said the dog left her care in good shape and she doesn't know what happened after that. You think Teal is a liar? That's fine. You think she did this to the dog? That's fine, too. Say your piece and leave. But to linger around in this thread, continuing to bash her is barbaric and childish. It's no wonder she won't come back... I completely understand. This thread has taken on a mob mentality and I doubt anything she says or anything she brings to the table will even be considered. We are running off of word of mouth and off of photos on the Internet... Wow, what proof we all have! Sounds definite!


Go ahead and pick this apart. Quote the part that enraged you and attack it...go for it. I have given my piece on what I think MAY have happened... Either way, I truly hope the moderators close this thread. It has served it's purpose and it just degrading itself into a downward spiral of bashing and condescending observations. Please, not only for the sake of Teal, but for the sake of the way this thread is making this forum LOOK, close it.

[Romy]

Originally Posted by Bahamutt99

I don't know if there is a significant difference between the condition of Salukis and Greys, but these dogs are fab.

Those are fabulous! <3

The biggest difference is muscle type. They bulk up quite a bit, where zois and salukis don't. They have pancake muscles. lol. I wish I had a shaved zoi picture now.

Because the muscle over the rib cage is so flat the only way to conceal it, unless your dog has abnormally muscular genetics for a saluki, is to get a fat pad on it. And if your dog is doing a lot of performance/running then that extra fat is not so good on their joints.

Part of the difference is the muscle confo and part of it is NGA track hounds spend their days being conditioned and eating special food proven to put them in that condition. Most saluki aren't conditioned to that extreme. Think Olympic athletes vs. local folks who ride in bike marathons. Both are really fit and healthy, one group trains to the extreme.

It seems like most saluki pics I see where there are no ribs visible whatsoever, the dogs are a good weight but muscle tone is meh.





vs.

[CharlieDog]

The fantastic thing about Chaz is that a thread usually only gets locked when it devolves into name calling and tantrums. So far, that hasn't happened. And the thread never really goes away.