Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Forum News > The Fire Hydrant


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 10-05-2012, 08:48 AM
release the hounds release the hounds is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Midwest
Posts: 3,986
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fran101 View Post
I always understood that consent was SAYING YES.
Not "Not saying no"
Lack of negative response or obvious NO should not mean yes.

You bring up a good point.. what about passed out people? drugs? drunk?

Such victim shaming. Ugh.

but we do live in the world where we teach girls over and over and over and over "How to not get raped/Safety tips for parties etc..."
and forget to teach respect, consent, and things like, gee I dunno..NOT RAPING PEOPLE to boys.
again, the passed out, drugs, drunk stuff is all addressed.

and I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the overwhelming majority of sex occurs without a "yes-yes" agreement ever taking place.

Quote:
I can separate the two. I did not read the complete ruling as I was on my phone but I did read most of it and I still dont find how they came to their conclusion.
The prosecution stated she was incapable of communication, therefore she couldn't agree to or object to whatever happened. The defense said she could, as she would bite people to the point of drawing blood and would hit and scratch people, again to the point of drawing blood just because she didn't want them in the room with her. It seems she's able to communicate her intentions.

On the surface this seems terrible. I'm not going to make many guesses on what happened because we actually once again know very little about a case. Yes it seems ridiculous that someone with the mental capacity of a 3 year old had sex forced upon them if that is what happened.

again, not about this case specifically because I know very little, but if you try to prove a rape and have your case hinge on a very narrow definition or "technicality" then one shouldn't be all that surprised that someone is also acquitted by that same narrow definition.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 10-05-2012, 08:57 AM
NicoleLJ's Avatar
NicoleLJ NicoleLJ is offline
PSD Partner
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,562
Default

And this is a prime example of why so many rape victims(women and men) don't come forward. They are guilty first of all sorts of things and put through hell to TRY and get justice and in many cases the rapists get off on a techicality. Sadly this did not surprise me in the least.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 10-05-2012, 09:09 AM
SevenSins
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by release the hounds View Post
Yes it seems ridiculous that someone with the mental capacity of a 3 year old had sex forced upon them

Quote:
if that is what happened.
As far as I can see, it isn't up for debate as to whether the man did or did not engage in sexual intercourse with the disabled woman, because it appears that he was open about that fact and physical evidence points to it being true. So with that in mind, please explain... How do you have consensual sex with someone who has the mental capacity of a three year old?
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 10-05-2012, 09:23 AM
release the hounds release the hounds is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Midwest
Posts: 3,986
Default

I don't know, I wouldn't. and i'm not going to comment on this specifically because there is a lot I don't know. I'd say if this person had a history of having consensual sex in the past it might have some bearing on a case such as this. Looking from the outside and on the surface, I agree 100% that having sex with someone that said to have the mental capacity of a 3 year old is disgusting. But this woman is NOT 3 I think it said she was in her 30's or close to it.

There are a lot of adults that don't have a mental capacity past the age of 8, yet they are married and having sex, do we need to protect them from each other too?
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 10-05-2012, 09:26 AM
Fran101's Avatar
Fran101 Fran101 is offline
Resident fainting goat
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 12,256
Default

By 'teaching not to rape' I meant more on going further into what no means.
Society as a whole has a huge problem with accepting the fact that no means no. Especially when it comes to touching and other people's bodies and ya, that starts as kids.

It’s not a generational thing: this mindset has clearly been ingrained from a pretty early age. How often are we told not to take no for an answer? How often do we see children pestering their parents about getting a new toy until they eventually give in? How often do we see on television shows and in movies a woman “changing her mind” about a man who is persistent enough or who just proves himself worthy? The idea that a woman will change her mind is so ingrained that we can’t always recognize it at first.
and to be fair.. how ARE kids supposed to know what no means when people aren't clear?! You say "No Tommy, you aren't getting that toy. The answer is no, stop that!"
Tommy pitches a fit, Tommy keeps trying..Tommy gets the toy and Tommy learns that no means try harder and keep doing what you are doing and you'll get it.

When someone asks you to stop doing something to them, the next question is always "why?" as if the personal protest of NO is not a good enough answer. You see this a lot in kids.. how many times have you been being poked or something by a child (even if just innocently) told them to stop and answered back with "why? but why?" .. It's innocent enough but it stands on greater problems.

Two kids are chasing each other through a park, you see this a lot in little boys and girls.. the girl is yelling NO GO AWAY EW!! and the little boy is chasing her with a bug or something or trying to hug her to "give her cooties" ( I see this A LOT at playgrounds) the parents are laughing and it is just kids playing BUT what is this teaching the boy? I think kids should be taught that no means no in all things..and it should be taught EARLY.

This is where rape education seems to be lacking. The conversation on prevention shouldn’t just be about how to know when consent is given. How can we even begin to prevent rape if we don’t change the way we look at a person saying the word no? It’s a simple enough lesson, one we’re supposed to learn as children but many don't. Verbal denial (No, stop, I don't want this) is one of the easiest ways to let someone know that you dislike their actions, and yet words are also the easiest things to ignore. If we can’t even listen to verbal cues, how are we supposed to believe that people will pick up on the physical ones? How are we supposed to teach people that consent is not given if the victim is too drunk to make proper decisions or isn't able to move or disabled? We can’t even teach people to stop when we clearly say “no!”

I'm sure not all sex acts are performed no a "YES" and "YES" basis. But if we can't even teach the world to respect the word NO how the heck is anyone going to know what to look for in subtle body language?

"No" means try harder.
Pushing away means push harder/pinning arms back (how many times you have seen THAT in movies/tv/porn).
"We shouldn't be doing this" "This is so wrong" "I don't want this"..how many times have you heard THAT ONE in movies? Does either party ever stop when one person says this? No. It's seen as romantic, erotic "Yes you do" "This is so right" etc..

Some parents do a great job teaching respect, what no means etc.. but I'm just saying, with many, there is much more to go.
And sure, many people think "Oh well..those things aren't connected. Me letting my son chase an unwilling girl around the playground..or giving him the toy I said no to when he tries harder.. that doesn't co-relate to how he's going to be about sex/consent! He's 7!"
Well, personally, I think the way we are about consent, the word no, respect for the word no..it starts early.

Kids taught mutual respect for other people keep those lessons way after then when it's about playground politics. I've seen it in action and trust me..it makes a difference.

You may see "Mommy but I want this toy PLEASE!!" "No." "BUT PLEASE!! I WANT IT! I'VE BEEN GOOD!" "ugh..fine" as nothing but just picture it later.

when instead of being the guy who asks a girl if she'd like a drink, if she says no, take it as her true answer and walk away.
To being the guy who says "why? I'm a great guy..come on..it's just one drink" and keeps going because hey..women will change their minds if you try hard enough.. or who only takes "I have a boyfriend" as a valid NO. and just think where that leads.

(side note: Funny how "I have a boyfriend" is seen as the only fail safe way to get a guy to leave you alone at the bar. As if being another male's girlfriend is the only true valid excuse another male will respect enough to back off.)

Wow this has gone long and off topic but yes, congrats for reading.

sparknotes..teach your kids what no means. Especially when it comes to other people. It DOES change how they see no in all ways.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 10-05-2012, 09:28 AM
~Jessie~'s Avatar
~Jessie~ ~Jessie~ is offline
Chihuahua Power!
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 19,567
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fran101 View Post
By 'teaching not to rape' I meant more on going further into what no means.
Society as a whole has a huge problem with accepting the fact that no means no. Especially when it comes to touching and other people's bodies and ya, that starts as kids.

It’s not a generational thing: this mindset has clearly been ingrained from a pretty early age. How often are we told not to take no for an answer? How often do we see children pestering their parents about getting a new toy until they eventually give in? How often do we see on television shows and in movies a woman “changing her mind” about a man who is persistent enough or who just proves himself worthy? The idea that a woman will change her mind is so ingrained that we can’t always recognize it at first.
and to be fair.. how ARE kids supposed to know what no means when people aren't clear?! You say "No Tommy, you aren't getting that toy. The answer is no, stop that!"
Tommy pitches a fit, Tommy keeps trying..Tommy gets the toy and Tommy learns that no means try harder and keep doing what you are doing and you'll get it.

When someone asks you to stop doing something to them, the next question is always "why?" as if the personal protest of NO is not a good enough answer. You see this a lot in kids.. how many times have you been being poked or something by a child (even if just innocently) told them to stop and answered back with "why? but why?" .. It's innocent enough but it stands on greater problems.

Two kids are chasing each other through a park, you see this a lot in little boys and girls.. the girl is yelling NO GO AWAY EW!! and the little boy is chasing her with a bug or something or trying to hug her to "give her cooties" ( I see this A LOT at playgrounds) the parents are laughing and it is just kids playing BUT what is this teaching the boy? I think kids should be taught that no means no in all things..and it should be taught EARLY.

This is where rape education seems to be lacking. The conversation on prevention shouldn’t just be about how to know when consent is given. How can we even begin to prevent rape if we don’t change the way we look at a person saying the word no? It’s a simple enough lesson, one we’re supposed to learn as children but many don't. Verbal denial (No, stop, I don't want this) is one of the easiest ways to let someone know that you dislike their actions, and yet words are also the easiest things to ignore. If we can’t even listen to verbal cues, how are we supposed to believe that people will pick up on the physical ones? How are we supposed to teach people that consent is not given if the victim is too drunk to make proper decisions or isn't able to move or disabled? We can’t even teach people to stop when we clearly say “no!”

I'm sure not all sex acts are performed no a "YES" and "YES" basis. But if we can't even teach the world to respect the word NO how the heck is anyone going to know what to look for in subtle body language?

"No" means try harder.
Pushing away means push harder/pinning arms back (how many times you have seen THAT in movies/tv/porn).
"We shouldn't be doing this" "This is so wrong" "I don't want this"..how many times have you heard THAT ONE in movies? Does either party ever stop when one person says this? No. It's seen as romantic, erotic "Yes you do" "This is so right" etc..

Some parents do a great job teaching respect, what no means etc.. but I'm just saying, with many, there is much more to go.
And sure, many people think "Oh well..those things aren't connected. Me letting my son chase an unwilling girl around the playground..or giving him the toy I said no to when he tries harder.. that doesn't co-relate to how he's going to be about sex/consent! He's 7!"
Well, personally, I think the way we are about consent, the word no, respect for the word no..it starts early.

Kids taught mutual respect for other people keep those lessons way after then when it's about playground politics. I've seen it in action and trust me..it makes a difference.

You may see "Mommy but I want this toy PLEASE!!" "No." "BUT PLEASE!! I WANT IT! I'VE BEEN GOOD!" "ugh..fine" as nothing but just picture it later.

when instead of being the guy who asks a girl if she'd like a drink, if she says no, take it as her true answer and walk away.
To being the guy who says "why? I'm a great guy..come on..it's just one drink" and keeps going because hey..women will change their minds if you try hard enough.. or who only takes "I have a boyfriend" as a valid NO. and just think where that leads.

(side note: Funny how "I have a boyfriend" is seen as the only fail safe way to get a guy to leave you alone at the bar. As if being another male's girlfriend is the only true valid excuse another male will respect enough to back off.)

Wow this has gone long and off topic but yes, congrats for reading.

sparknotes..teach your kids what no means. Especially when it comes to other people. It DOES change how they see no in all ways.


Yeah, a family member of mine said "no" when asked if she wanted to have sex while they were making out. The guy stuck it in her anyway (without a condom, even).

No means NO. It doesn't mean "no" now but "yes" 5 minutes from now.

Sadly, the girl I'm referring to at first considered it rape because she said no... but then said that since she didn't stop making out with him, he probably figured it was okay to just "stick it in her" (her words).
__________________

L to R: Chloe, Rylie, Emma, Tucker, and Rory
My Blog- Chihuahuas are not Sheep
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 10-05-2012, 09:31 AM
SevenSins
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by release the hounds View Post
Looking from the outside and on the surface, I agree 100% that having sex with someone that said to have the mental capacity of a 3 year old is disgusting. But this woman is NOT 3 I think it said she was in her 30's or close to it.
Let's use some simple logic here to discover why I believe this manner of thinking is...flawed, shall we? Why is it that an actual 3 year old can not have consensual sex? It isn't because they're small in stature, is it? Therefore it must be...what? Please tell me in your own words.

Quote:
There are a lot of adults that don't have a mental capacity past the age of 8, yet they are married and having sex, do we need to protect them from each other too?
Do you want my honest opinion or is this a rhetorical question?
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 10-05-2012, 10:07 AM
eddieq's Avatar
eddieq eddieq is offline
Silence! I ban you!
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: PA
Posts: 8,622
Default

I might be reading it wrong, but the whole "intellectual capacity of a three year old thing" wasn't in reference to this particular victim, according to the court opinion papers. It was in reference to another case which the judges referenced in making their ruling.

It still doesn't make it right, and in my opinion, the guy is a complete sicko.
__________________
When things don't go your way, stop and think, "Problem, or inconvenience?" - with apologies to Robert Fulghum
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 10-05-2012, 10:22 AM
SevenSins
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddieq View Post
I might be reading it wrong, but the whole "intellectual capacity of a three year old thing" wasn't in reference to this particular victim, according to the court opinion papers. It was in reference to another case which the judges referenced in making their ruling.
Even if the woman in question has a fully functioning mental capacity, and could under normal circumstances make vocalizations or some movements, simple logic would still suggest that perhaps an able-bodied adult male would be able to overpower a person with her disabilities in such a way as to make it impossible for that to happen.

Would she be able to consent to sex under normal circumstances, if she was fully mentally functioning, and would it then be possible that she did consent and decided after the fact to pursue false charges? Yes. If that's the case, is there room in this situation for exploitation on both sides? Yes. That's why there needs to be better failsafes in place for circumstances that take place outside of the "textbook" so that you don't run into a situation where a potentially perfectly legitimate victim doesn't stand a chance due to a technicality.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 10-05-2012, 10:30 AM
eddieq's Avatar
eddieq eddieq is offline
Silence! I ban you!
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: PA
Posts: 8,622
Default

That's true, SevenSins. The technicality by which the conviction was reversed was a flaw in the way the statute is written. It sucks and sucks hard. The guy is scum, but I constantly hear from people that it's better to let 100 guilty people go free than to wrongly convict one innocent man. For the record, I believe that this guy needs to spend the rest of his life behind bars. Clearly he went after her because she was "weak" and he was certain he could get away with it.
__________________
When things don't go your way, stop and think, "Problem, or inconvenience?" - with apologies to Robert Fulghum
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:25 PM.


©1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site