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  #671  
Old 10-03-2012, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Linds View Post
I'll be honest, I would like that. Whether it's helpful or not I would like to hear an explanation.

And a little less constructive I would like to hear what her supporters and defenders think. Did this convince them?
No. I know Teal would never intentionally do this to an animal.

Do I think this is proof that Teal is responsible for the condition of the dog? No. The vet records don't exactly tell us anything we didn't already know... That the dog was emaciated. However, it does say right there, that the cause of the emaciation could very well be from stress.

My conclusion is maybe the dog felt bereft... Dogs know when you don't like them. And the stress caused his weight loss. Do I think Teal STARVED the dog? No, no I do not. But it doesn't take long for a lean puppy to get dangerously skinny...especially a lean, stressed out puppy that may or may not have been refusing food when with Teal.

That's my personal conclusion. I also don't think Teal will come back here... I wouldn't, either. No matter what she says, it won't matter. No one will believe that she doesn't "recycle" dogs or purposely abuse them. Most of you seem to already feel that other breeders should avoid selling her puppies. It's sad that is came down this way.

There is no PROOF. Is there evidence that leans more one way and not the other? Yes, but there is no PROOF. Proof is when you can say, as fact, that Teal abused this dog. All of what we have here is speculation. The only people who KNOW what happened are Teal and the breeder.
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  #672  
Old 10-03-2012, 04:22 PM
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What in the world kind of proof would it take to convince you?
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  #673  
Old 10-03-2012, 04:26 PM
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The problem with your theory barbara is that teal claims the pup was not like that IN HER CARE. Do you see the dates lining up?
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  #674  
Old 10-03-2012, 04:28 PM
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I'll be honest, I like Teal, I've talked to her for a couple years on another forum and we've become "friends" (I use quotations because we've never actually met in person, just spoke via the internet).

However, I'm not going to sit here and make a fool out of myself defending her (and almost digging the hole even deeper for her) like others have. If Teal would like to come back to defend herself, that's fine. I doubt she'll be back here though, she hasn't been online since the other morning anyway. Can't say that I blame her.

Do I think she did this purposefully? No way. But am I okay with how the pup looked in the breeders pictures? Of course not.

I don't know WHAT happened. Or why. But this whole situation saddens me.
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  #675  
Old 10-03-2012, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbara! View Post
No. I know Teal would never intentionally do this to an animal.

Do I think this is proof that Teal is responsible for the condition of the dog? No. The vet records don't exactly tell us anything we didn't already know... That the dog was emaciated. However, it does say right there, that the cause of the emaciation could very well be from stress.

My conclusion is maybe the dog felt bereft... Dogs know when you don't like them. And the stress caused his weight loss. Do I think Teal STARVED the dog? No, no I do not. But it doesn't take long for a lean puppy to get dangerously skinny...especially a lean, stressed out puppy that may or may not have been refusing food when with Teal.

That's my personal conclusion. I also don't think Teal will come back here... I wouldn't, either. No matter what she says, it won't matter. No one will believe that she doesn't "recycle" dogs or purposely abuse them. Most of you seem to already feel that other breeders should avoid selling her puppies. It's sad that is came down this way.

There is no PROOF. Is there evidence that leans more one way and not the other? Yes, but there is no PROOF. Proof is when you can say, as fact, that Teal abused this dog. All of what we have here is speculation. The only people who KNOW what happened are Teal and the breeder.
I guess that's why I'd like to hear from her. She said the dog in the breeder's pictures is the same dog. The dates are from the same day of pickup and the same day he went to the vet. The vet couldn't even get a fecal from him because there was no food in his system. That should never have happened. And she lied about that on here. She lied about the dates on the pictures.

That should never have happened with that dog. If it was bereft from being ignored because she couldn't handle him being clingy, then he needed to be cradled in her arms and spoon fed nutrical if that's what it took. But that didn't happen.

In the end, I'm just really glad he's okay and happy now.
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  #676  
Old 10-03-2012, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACooper View Post
The problem with your theory barbara is that teal claims the pup was not like that IN HER CARE. Do you see the dates lining up?
Exactly.

Teal started this thread on August 27, 2011.

She claimed those pictures of Bullseye (who didn't look healthy then, even) were taken on August 24th. They were actually taken on August 10, and posted on a forum on August 15th.

Dianna picked the dog up from Teal on August 29th and took him to the vet immediately. The vet reports say August 29th, and so does the exif data on the photos of Bullseye looking emaciated.

Barbara, do you care to explain how this isn't enough "proof" for you? How would it be possible from a puppy to go from being at a great weight to emaciated in a couple of hours?
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  #677  
Old 10-03-2012, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbara! View Post
No. I know Teal would never intentionally do this to an animal.

Do I think this is proof that Teal is responsible for the condition of the dog? No. The vet records don't exactly tell us anything we didn't already know... That the dog was emaciated. However, it does say right there, that the cause of the emaciation could very well be from stress.

My conclusion is maybe the dog felt bereft... Dogs know when you don't like them. And the stress caused his weight loss. Do I think Teal STARVED the dog? No, no I do not. But it doesn't take long for a lean puppy to get dangerously skinny...especially a lean, stressed out puppy that may or may not have been refusing food when with Teal.

That's my personal conclusion. I also don't think Teal will come back here... I wouldn't, either. No matter what she says, it won't matter. No one will believe that she doesn't "recycle" dogs or purposely abuse them. Most of you seem to already feel that other breeders should avoid selling her puppies. It's sad that is came down this way.

There is no PROOF. Is there evidence that leans more one way and not the other? Yes, but there is no PROOF. Proof is when you can say, as fact, that Teal abused this dog. All of what we have here is speculation. The only people who KNOW what happened are Teal and the breeder.
You're missing where many of us have said we don't think the neglect was intentional. Whether the emaciation was from stress or him refusing food, why did she not DO something about it? If my dog refused food long enough to get in that condition or was stressed enough to get in that condition (SAD!), you can bet I'd sure as hell be running to the vet and doing whatever I could to get the weight back up.

But if Teal sticks by her statement that the dog was in "good condition" when he left her care, then that's all neither here nor there anyway....
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  #678  
Old 10-03-2012, 04:30 PM
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I'm going to guess that she got in over her head... again.

I know that everybody wants to keep this to the Fila pup, but there is a track record here. I will admit that I've not seen this level of neglect from her until now, but the sad thing is that I was not at all surprised when I saw these photos. This is only one incident, and there are many others that aren't being discussed here.

Jairi jumps all over the place as far as breeds she is interested in, so we have no idea what she will end up with next. She's expressed interest in other sighthound breeds, herding breeds, sled dogs, and now apparently PWDs. And, that is just what we know about. What I would love to see is everybody spread the word within their own breed communities. If you know people in California, tell them. Tell them to tell others. Send them to this thread. We need to do everything we can to help be sure that this never happens again.
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  #679  
Old 10-03-2012, 04:31 PM
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See what I mean?

Doesn't matter what anyone says. You have your conclusions, and I have mine.
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  #680  
Old 10-03-2012, 04:33 PM
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As far as calling A/C goes, I can see not doing it. That's a good way for your pup to end up being seized and parked in a facility. As "evidence."

I'd be inclined to keep it to passing along the information that this person isn't someone who should necessarily be allowed to obtain a dog, at least not without careful, consistent monitoring.

I'd like to hear about how her fosters fared. Maybe there are some people who are good foster homes but not good permanent homes, at least not for most dogs. I don't know. I can't relate to the whole thing, so I can only speculate. I don't feel that Teal is a mean, cruel person, but there's a connection there that failed, not just on an emotional bonding level with this pup, but on a basic awareness level.
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