Returning a dog to the breeder - Questions/Rant

[Red Chrome]

Originally Posted by ihartgonzo

No offense taken. I do feel that puppy looks perfectly healthy. It's highly recommended that large breeds are kept lean during growth. And really, a growth spurt could result in a puppy looking super skinny suddenly. The breeder is a show breeder and obviously they prefer fatter dogs than working people. I know a certain Kelpie puppy, Limit, who has gone through some crazy skinny phases where he looked just as thin as Bullseye does there... thinner even! But no one would accuse his mom of anything but amazing care of her digs. An owner who doesn't care enough to feed her puppy some kibble isn't going to take that puppy on socialization outings, take professional photos of them, and keep them for months even when the breeder neglects to answer their calls and ignores their requests to return the puppy for weeks. A malnourished puppy isn't going to be running and playing with other pups.

While Limit may have went through growth spurts, he always looked healthy and happy,vibrant. Bullseye looks sick in Jairi's pics. His coat lacks shine, his eyes look sunk back and he just looks like a neglected dog. Those are the only 2 pics of Bullseye with Jairi in the last month she had him, she only had him 2 months!!!! The breeder did NOT ignore or neglect to answer their phone. They answered the call as soon as it was received. They drove to pick the dog up ASAP. The breeder received a total of 2 calls during the time he was with Jairi.

[Lyzelle]

Keeping a dog lean, a skinny dog, and an emaciated dog are all very different things. Could a pup drop that weight in a week to 10 days, given a decent amount of stress and lack of basic care? Or even a growth spurt? Yes. 3 days, not really. There have been plenty of times Macie was lean, Macie was skinny...but never emaciated. As quick as they can drop weight, they can also pick it up just as fast. As the breeder said, 14 pounds in a week. That's no easy feat for many dogs.

That pup was at least in that ribby condition 8-12 days BEFORE the breeder picked him up, which would have been plenty of time to pack the weight back on. And considering his lack of muscling, I do not chalk it up to him being "lean". Maybe Teal is just flat ignorant on how much weight a large breed pup should be in? Saluki's look skinny and borderline emaciated. Filas, in no way, shape, or form, EVER should.

[AdrianneIsabel]

I suppose we'll have to disagree on what is healthy dog care with IHG.

It happens.

[Locke]

Maybe this is a stretch, but when my sister's eating disorder got really out of hand, I hadn't noticed her drastic weight drop at all. Now, when I look back at pictures I can't believe I could have over looked something so obvious. I'm pretty sure it was because while it was a very dramatic change, it happened somewhat gradually, and I didn't notice the daily/weekly changes because they were so "small".

Perhaps this is a similar situation?

[Romy]

Originally Posted by Lyzelle

Keeping a dog lean, a skinny dog, and an emaciated dog are all very different things. Could a pup drop that weight in a week to 10 days, given a decent amount of stress and lack of basic care? Or even a growth spurt? Yes. 3 days, not really. There have been plenty of times Macie was lean, Macie was skinny...but never emaciated. As quick as they can drop weight, they can also pick it up just as fast. As the breeder said, 14 pounds in a week. That's no easy feat for many dogs.

That pup was at least in that ribby condition 8-12 days BEFORE the breeder picked him up, which would have been plenty of time to pack the weight back on. And considering his lack of muscling, I do not chalk it up to him being "lean". Maybe Teal is just flat ignorant on how much weight a large breed pup should be in? Saluki's look skinny and borderline emaciated. Filas, in no way, shape, or form, EVER should.

I've got borzois, and raised a litter of puppies over the summer. They can hit a growth spurt and get a little bit ribby over the course of a couple of days. A LITTLE. None of them EVER got to the point where you could see more than two or three ribs when they were resting. And they NEVER got to the point where you could actually count their vertebrae. Ever. No dog ever should. Even skeletor-looking azawakh never get to where you can count vertebrae. The spinal column should be wrapped in muscle.

Besides, those are sight hounds and not mastiffs. Large breed puppies should be on the lean side, but what goes along with that is great muscle tone and a healthy coat. A dog that is lean because it's getting the right balance of food and activity will always have a healthy coat. A dog that is lean because he's malnourished will have a crappy coat.

ETA: the breeder shows in IABCA shows, which lean much stronger toward working dogs in working condition. So just because she shows doesn't mean she favors keeping dogs heavy.

[sillysally]

Originally Posted by Locke

Maybe this is a stretch, but when my sister's eating disorder got really out of hand, I hadn't noticed her drastic weight drop at all. Now, when I look back at pictures I can't believe I could have over looked something so obvious. I'm pretty sure it was because while it was a very dramatic change, it happened somewhat gradually, and I didn't notice the daily/weekly changes because they were so "small".

Perhaps this is a similar situation?

I guess I just don't understand how THAT much weight loss on a pup can be missed for so long. Your sister wore clothes, and you were not responsible for monitoring her development I'm guessing. This was a short coated puppy whose growth should be watched and noted. I could see a pup getting a little ribby and not seeing it right away, but that was far more than a little ribby....

[JessLough]

Originally Posted by Red Chrome

While Limit may have went through growth spurts, he always looked healthy and happy,vibrant. Bullseye looks sick in Jairi's pics. His coat lacks shine, his eyes look sunk back and he just looks like a neglected dog. Those are the only 2 pics of Bullseye with Jairi in the last month she had him, she only had him 2 months!!!! The breeder did NOT ignore or neglect to answer their phone. They answered the call as soon as it was received. They drove to pick the dog up ASAP. The breeder received a total of 2 calls during the time he was with Jairi.

Originally Posted by Lyzelle

Keeping a dog lean, a skinny dog, and an emaciated dog are all very different things. Could a pup drop that weight in a week to 10 days, given a decent amount of stress and lack of basic care? Or even a growth spurt? Yes. 3 days, not really. There have been plenty of times Macie was lean, Macie was skinny...but never emaciated. As quick as they can drop weight, they can also pick it up just as fast. As the breeder said, 14 pounds in a week. That's no easy feat for many dogs.

That pup was at least in that ribby condition 8-12 days BEFORE the breeder picked him up, which would have been plenty of time to pack the weight back on. And considering his lack of muscling, I do not chalk it up to him being "lean". Maybe Teal is just flat ignorant on how much weight a large breed pup should be in? Saluki's look skinny and borderline emaciated. Filas, in no way, shape, or form, EVER should.

These.

Remember, Teal said HERSELF that she was having a hard time giving "it" BASIC care, she said HERSELF this "animal" is not easy to live with.

I honestly don't think that people thinking the dog got into such a state with her is jumping that far. She was having a hard time even bothering to feed him!

Do I think she purposely did it? No. Do I think she meant for it to happen? No. Do I think she should man up and admit that maybe it happened? Absolutely.

ETA: Personally, referring to a pet as "it", "animal", etc. is not a sign of a person who is caring properly for a dog or cares for it's well-being.

Hell, I've had my fair share of rescues that I absolutely did not get along with. I still managed to feed it, give it the attention it needed, and call it by it's name (I'm using "it" now as general, not a specific animal).

[Red Chrome]

Originally Posted by JessLough

Do I think she purposely did it? No. Do I think she meant for it to happen? No. Do I think she should man up and admit that maybe it happened? Absolutely.

This^^!

[Lyzelle]

Originally Posted by Romy

I've got borzois, and raised a litter of puppies over the summer. They can hit a growth spurt and get a little bit ribby over the course of a couple of days. A LITTLE. None of them EVER got to the point where you could see more than two or three ribs when they were resting. And they NEVER got to the point where you could actually count their vertebrae. Ever. No dog ever should. Even skeletor-looking azawakh never get to where you can count vertebrae. The spinal column should be wrapped in muscle.

I didn't mean to compare sighthounds all across the board. I was comparing to her dog, specifically, where I can count the vertebra, ribs, and see prominent hip bones. And it's not an uncommon thing I see, but I understand not ALL sighthounds and sighthound people feel the same on that subject.

[AdrianneIsabel]

Sloan was too skinny.





I also took her to the vet (like the breeder supposedly did), ran every test we could think of, and changed her food until we found something that didn't make her poop liquid. Malinois are notorious for scrawny puppies but she was too skinny for comfort.

Being that skinny can happen but why wasn't the owner taking the pup to the vet out of concern? Did they just let it go knowing the pup would be going to a new home soon and it's easier to let the new owner deal with it?