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  #101  
Old 09-20-2012, 09:30 AM
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Doberluv Doberluv is offline
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Watch the video again Rubygirl. The dog in the beginning has a soft face, soft eyes and begins eating peacefully, looking like there isn't a worry in her head. Then all of a sudden Cesar, this mentally unstable psycopath moves into her close, hovering over her food. The dog, who most assuredly has a history of being threatened about her food, snarls and air snaps, where upon Cesar slugs the dog hard right in her carotid artery area on her neck. This dog is giving every calming signal possible. She licks her lips, turns her head, (he calls that not being submissive enough...idiot) She lies down. After she bites, he moves in closer yet again, trapping her between the fence and a bush, while he blocks the only escape route left to her. If you think this is is something that every dog should tolerate after having a history of probably mistreatment, then I don't know what to think. You ask any behaviorist what they think and I can almost guarantee that they won't agree that this is abnormal or that it is out right aggression. Sure, there are dogs that will put up with more. Dogs, like people have different thresholds for mistreatment. There are dogs that genetically don't have a high threshold because if they did, they wouldn't make, for instance, good guardian dogs. I had a Doberman and if he had been kicked around and gone after like CM did this dog, he wouldn't have tolerated it. He wouldn't have lasted as long as this dog did before defending himself. No way. And my Doberman never bit anyone in his life. He was a fine dog with people. But no one ever violently attacked him, like this nut job does to dogs.

And the dog's history probably has a lot to do with it as well. Something that was going on PREDICTED to this dog that things were about to get a lot worse. If it were the first time something like this happened, he may not have bitten that hard. He may have still been in the wtf??? stage, where he's still trying to work things out. Or........maybe he has a lower tolerance for this kind of mistreatment. So....simple answer for a dog that has a low tolerance? Work within that tolerance. Stop pushing him and doing everything possible to elicit that kind of response from him.

If someone doesn't want to have a dog that bites when people get around his/her food, then don't go around his food.... OR....condition him to being fine with it PROPERLY. And that does not include abuse!
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  #102  
Old 09-20-2012, 09:32 AM
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I wouldn't expect any dog, regardless of their previous life, to accept what Dober's described. I wouldn't WANT my dog to accept that from anyone.

You treat an animal like that you SHOULD get hammered.
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  #103  
Old 09-20-2012, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
So you set your dogs up for failure? Fantastic!



But hey if the only way you know how to train is Me Caveman You Dog then by all means, enjoy.

Meanwhile, in the modern world...
No they are not set up for failure. Every dog I have fostered/rescued has ended up in wonderful homes. I'm not about to go into the process that I use to desensitize a dog but I'm sure it's not what you are thinking... obviously it's not.
As for the caveman comment- I don't let my dogs attack me "goodness no, they are fuzzy humans after all" *gag*
You do what you want. You allow your dogs to bite you and it's ok well that's your problem (as stated before). I'm not tolerating it.
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  #104  
Old 09-20-2012, 09:35 AM
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True dog lover... right there. Yup.
Once again I associate this with the big talkers. Super tough, I mean they can kick a kitten to death and then walk away with beer in hand not a flicker of guilt on their minds, online of course.

Offline we call those sociopaths.
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  #105  
Old 09-20-2012, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by rubygirl View Post
People who have children and would take a chance at having a dog at that level of aggression around... yes I would say that they are not particularly sound minded.
Hmm, count me in the unstable then....and many other dog people I know. OH the horror of not letting kids corner dogs and ATTACK them provoking a bit. The horror of freaking managing a situation.
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  #106  
Old 09-20-2012, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
Yes it is. The dog is already so worked up... his survival instincts are in high gear. His physiological self, hormones etc are in full defense mode. This dog has been a punching bag no doubt and because Cesar paused for a moment was no reassurance that the attack was over. Cesar did pause several times and then went after the dog again. So, he learned that the assault wasn't over.
Yup, by the time the bite occurs, in the dog's mind it has nothing to do with food and everything to do with defending herself against an aggressor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rubygirl View Post
At no time did I see punching or kicking. I saw him kick the dog (not even hard) when the dog had latched on... or do you propose that he just stand there submissively while the dog is ripping his hand off.
At the very beginning of the clip, when he is looming over the food bowl and she snaps at him, he clocks her right in the side of her head. It's fast, but he hits her.

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Originally Posted by rubygirl View Post
Imagining a child in the place of Cesar. A child that may very well be "posturing" over the dog or "provoking" the dog or "hitting" it on the neck. That kid would be attacked and maybe dead.
Strawman. The dog did not bite until after it was pursued well away from the food and continuously harassed. I do not allow children under my supervision to be anywhere near dogs while they are eating, let alone pursue them or treat them the way Cesar did. If you do, then as I said before there is a lot larger problem than RG going on.

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I have given my opinion which is, last time I checked, the point of a forum.
Yup, you have your right to give your opinion. And everyone else has a right to give their opinions of your opinion.
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  #107  
Old 09-20-2012, 09:39 AM
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AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
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Sorry Ruby, my dogs have teeth, they can bite because I've yet to kick the teeth out of their mouths. That said, as I was clear about, it is not acceptable. It is not however a death sentence nor am I so uneducated to believe that abuse solves the issue without additional side effects which I am not willing to create.

Management, rehab, training, and proper desensitizing (ie praising the right option directly below the threshold) is the fixer.

I'd rather work with my dogs than kill them most days, we can't all say that though.
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  #108  
Old 09-20-2012, 09:40 AM
rubygirl rubygirl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
Watch the video again Rubygirl. The dog in the beginning has a soft face, soft eyes and begins eating peacefully, looking like there isn't a worry in her head. Then all of a sudden Cesar, this mentally unstable psycopath moves into her close, hovering over her food. The dog, who most assuredly has a history of being threatened about her food, snarls and air snaps, where upon Cesar slugs the dog hard right in her carotid artery area on her neck. This dog is giving every calming signal possible. She licks her lips, turns her head, (he calls that not being submissive enough...idiot) She lies down. After she bites, he moves in closer yet again, trapping her between the fence and a bush, while he blocks the only escape route left to her. If you think this is is something that every dog should tolerate after having a history of probably mistreatment, then I don't know what to think. You ask any behaviorist what they think and I can almost guarantee that they won't agree that this is abnormal or that it is out right aggression. Sure, there are dogs that will put up with more. Dogs, like people have different thresholds for mistreatment. There are dogs that genetically don't have a high threshold because if they did, they wouldn't make, for instance, good guardian dogs. I had a Doberman and if he had been kicked around and gone after like CM did this dog, he wouldn't have tolerated it. He wouldn't have lasted as long as this dog did before defending himself. No way. And my Doberman never bit anyone in his life. He was a fine dog with people. But no one ever violently attacked him, like this nut job does to dogs.

And the dog's history probably has a lot to do with it as well. Something that was going on PREDICTED to this dog that things were about to get a lot worse. If it were the first time something like this happened, he may not have bitten that hard. He may have still been in the wtf??? stage, where he's still trying to work things out. Or........maybe he has a lower tolerance for this kind of mistreatment. So....simple answer for a dog that has a low tolerance? Work within that tolerance. Stop pushing him and doing everything possible to elicit that kind of response from him.

If someone doesn't want to have a dog that bites when people get around his/her food, then don't go around his food.... OR....condition him to being fine with it PROPERLY. And that does not include abuse!
Ok so.... a husband is being threatened by his wife. She is posturing and in his face. She then goes as if to take his remote control away from him (she doesn't actually do it but the husband perceives this to be the case). He then air punches close to her face so she smacks his hand away from her face. He then "instinctually" beats the crap out of her and punches her in the face numerous times and she has some serious cuts that are bleeding. Appropriate response? No.
Obviously Cesar is a human and the dog is a dog but STILL. Cesar was putting a dog in a position to show him her true nature and the behaviour her was hired to correct. I don't agree with all of his methods but I understand what he was attempting to do. You call this setting the dog up for failure I call it putting the dog in a position to be corrected.
I'm not a huge Cesar fan but I'm not against him (I don't consider him a sadist or an abuser). Cesar has his techniques and I'm not going to dispute them because I don't really care.
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  #109  
Old 09-20-2012, 09:40 AM
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Doberluv Doberluv is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renee750il View Post
I wouldn't expect any dog, regardless of their previous life, to accept what Dober's described. I wouldn't WANT my dog to accept that from anyone.

You treat an animal like that you SHOULD get hammered.
No, a dog wouldn't have to have previous mistreatment. I'm just saying that the dog may have held off just a little longer before biting if this were the first time it perceived it's food being taken or being punished. This may have been quicker because of that anticipation element. But maybe not. Animals are animals. And it's too bad people don't really get that and expect them to have our human value system and our moral system. "Yes, you should put up with mistreatment and abuse, no matter what."

And btw....No one said that one should have a dog "like this" when they have a baby in the house. Furthermore, if people mishandle dogs, push them into defensiveness, take normal behavior and turn it into really dangerous behavior......they shouldn't have dogs in the first place, baby in house or not.
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

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  #110  
Old 09-20-2012, 09:41 AM
rubygirl rubygirl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
Sorry Ruby, my dogs have teeth, they can bite because I've yet to kick the teeth out of their mouths. That said, as I was clear about, it is not acceptable. It is not however a death sentence nor am I so uneducated to believe that abuse solves the issue without additional side effects which I am not willing to create.

Management, rehab, training, and proper desensitizing (ie praising the right option directly below the threshold) is the fixer.

I'd rather work with my dogs than kill them most days, we can't all say that though.
I have kids. End of story.
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