CM gets bitten... again (vid included)

[kady05]

FYI: *Kady

And no. I'm not trying to be smug.

That is all

[Taqroy]

I agree with everything Laurelin has said thus far - she's put it far better and more politely than I could.

Originally Posted by Laurelin

I will go even farther. I would bet money if you put Mia in that situation, she would have bitten Cesar. I don't think she would have landed multiple bites or broken the skin like this dog, but I think she would have bitten. Would she bite me for doing the same thing? Not likely. But a stranger coming up and posturing over her then hitting her in the side, pursuing her, putting his hand on her muzzle, staring her down- she would at least probably have snapped at him. I would not expect any dog to tolerate that behavior. I know some would. Summer would- she'd be up in Cesar's face trying to give him kisses but she's an exceedingly friendly dog to a fault. Most dogs I've had would not have tolerated that behavior.

Murphy would have bit - I don't know if he would have broken skin and I think that the blow CM landed on that dog would have probably shut him down, but there is no doubt in my mind he would have attempted at least one bite. Should I put my 9 year old dog (who has bitten once before and never broken the skin) down because he's unsound? Because he has mild guarding issues with people who aren't me and Matt?

Kady, what gets people all up in arms is that you come into EVERY SINGLE thread where a dog lands a bite and say "Oh well I would just put that dog down." And then, if anyone calls you out on it you get defensive and start a fight. And of course people are going to call you out on it - the world is not black and white. And it is offensive to say that you would put down a dog that has clearly been mishandled over an issue that can easily be fixed because:

Originally Posted by kady05

I come from a "Pit Bull" frame of mind.

Good for you. I come from a "Dogs are dogs and not humans and if I push one over threshold then I **** well deserve a bite frame of mind."

And FTR I don't agree with anyone else who said the dog should be put down. I guess I *should* put Murphy down because he put his mouth on a friend of mine when she tried to take Tipper's food away from him.

[sassafras]

Originally Posted by Laurelin

This dog is not starting any of the confrontation. It's only reacting because there is this stranger getting all up in its face, staring a hole through her, looming over her and sticking his hands in her food dish. She's giving tons of signs to him to back the eff off. She averts her eyes. She growls. Licks her lips. Warning air snaps. He just keeps on and keeps on. Then puts his hand over her muzzle and then she bites.

Exactly. This is part of what makes me do a double take at the calls to euthanize... the dog didn't just bite out of the blue. She didn't even bite over the food - she air snapped - so the "what if a child dropped some food" type stuff is sort of a strawman. That's not even close to what happened here. The dog didn't bite until she was harassed for an extended period of time after leaving the food. He could have picked up the food anytime he liked after she moved away from it the first time.

I'd like to think anyone here wouldn't allow their child to hover over the dog's food dish while staring at them, punch their dog in the side of the head for snarling and air snapping, and then PURSUE the dog across the room/yard while continuing to stare and loom over the dog while ignoring all the dog's signals to back off. If so... then there are bigger problems than RG going on.


ETA: And I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees RG as a relatively easy fix (or at least a relatively easy manage) for someone who is willing to put the work in. Just seems like such an odd thing to euthanize a dog over (especially when this bite was not really over the food itself but the harassment that followed).

[AdrianneIsabel]

If the bite was "random" I would be equally likely to not euthanize. Talk about reviewing stressors, medical reasons, etc. Then again I don't believe dogs just up and randomly become possessed.

And yes, I believe most of those jumping to this hypothetical dead dog choice have never dealt with such a situation. I believe they have not been bitten by their own dog and marched to the vet or the gun store and said load 'er up, bitch bit me! It's just not that simple when it's your dog.

Those who have though, they do exist, fall into my "please just don't talk to me" category of dog ownership because we obviously lack the same connection of dog lover that I once thought we had.

I do believe there are times when dogs should be killed, I do not however respect blanket statements and a lackluster attitude about working with an "issue" dog before killing it.

[kady05]

Originally Posted by kady05

I won't comment on anything else, but, Sako is the same way if he knows I'm mad at him. He won't completely roll like Junior did, but he does the slinky, low tail wagging, ears back stuff. He's just naturally super submissive, and sensitive. He's never been abused a day in his life (actually, he's been the most coddled of all of my dogs and gets away with more crap than the other two ever have).

So, just saying that just because a dog does that doesn't automatically = OMGABUSE!

Originally Posted by kady05

FYI: The dog wasn't returned back to its owners, she stayed with CM. Which IMO, wasn't a bad decision. A dog like that shouldn't be in a home with a toddler (the owners had an 18 month old kid).

Originally Posted by kady05

Well, if it were me, and I had a kid, I would never own a dog like that. Actually, that dog would've been in the ground had it offered that kind of behavior. Apparently she bit both owners multiple times over it, and Cesar was the 3rd or 4th trainer they worked with. What if, god forbid, the kid dropped food on the floor one day?

I'm not saying I agree with how Cesar handled it, but my opinion is that the dog would've been PTS had it of been in my care. But then again, I come from a "Pit Bull" frame of mind.

Originally Posted by kady05

What do you mean by that? Because I have Bully breeds I should be more.. okay with dogs biting people?

Originally Posted by kady05

For me, I accept DA/DR because it's a breed trait in the dogs I own. HA is not; although, I don't tolerate that in any breed. However, I would not willingly accept a DA/DR dog into my house.. luckily, none of my dogs have any DA/DR.

Now, resource guarding I think is totally workable, in some situations. In THIS situation, the dog needed to be rehomed or PTS, IMO. The people had been working with multiple trainers for quite some time, with no success. And, the dog actually was getting worse (went from just food guarding to then showing guarding behavior when crated).

Piper was food aggressive as a puppy, I worked with it and she's totally fine now. I expect my dogs to let me do whatever I want to them when they're eating, and they all do. Maybe I'm just lucky, I don't know.

Originally Posted by kady05

Wouldn't surprise me!

Originally Posted by kady05

Holy wow, way to assume all of that just from one post!

I specifically said if *I* had a kid, *I* wouldn't own a dog like that. Never did I say "Anyone that does have a dog like that with a kid is a horrible parent" or anything remotely similar. Your kid(s). Your dog. You do what you want.

Originally Posted by kady05

FYI: *Kady

And no. I'm not trying to be smug.

That is all

Originally Posted by Taqroy

Kady, what gets people all up in arms is that you come into EVERY SINGLE thread where a dog lands a bite and say "Oh well I would just put that dog down." And then, if anyone calls you out on it you get defensive and start a fight. And of course people are going to call you out on it - the world is not black and white. And it is offensive to say that you would put down a dog that has clearly been mishandled over an issue that can easily be fixed because:


Good for you. I come from a "Dogs are dogs and not humans and if I push one over threshold then I **** well deserve a bite frame of mind."

9pgs. of posts. I replied.. 8 times. Where have I gotten defensive and started a fight on this topic again? Hell, if I'm being defensive, I'd hate to hear what you'd classify some of the others who have been much more involved in this topic than I have!

Sorry if you're offended by my opinion. I personally feel that I would never own a dog that bit people. I mentioned "Pit Bull" frame of mind because if I had dogs that bit people, that'd be a lot bigger deal than if I owned say, a Lab that bit people. The world doesn't take very kindly to Pit Bulls that bite humans.. not sure if you knew that. And yes, I'm being a bit "smug" now.

Isn't that what forums are for? So people can voice different opinions on topics? Or is that not allowed here?

[Doberluv]

Never mind that Cesar was staring, hovering over, blocking access to the food, even though that's bad enough. He was pursuing that dog non stop, relentlessly, punching, kicking, and cornering the poor animal. That dog didn't have a chance, even when he lay down and wasn't reacting. Cesar still, egged him on and forcefully elicited the reactions he got. That dog had no choice but to bite. He was being attacked by this maniac!!!!!!!!! What freakin animal, including a human wouldn't defend himself if that's all there was left because escaping wasn't even an option.... as far as I remember...without going back and looking at the yard and so forth. (can't bring myself to watch that again) This is absolutely normal behavior in a situation such as this. Yeah right...push someone, animal or human into a corner, make it think it might be killed and when it tries to preserve it's life the only way it knows how.....KILL IT. THIS IS AN ANIMAL. Animals don't know that you're still planning on letting it live and planning on feeding it again. To an animal, this situation may very well mean the end of it's life. Why do people forget that dogs are animals?????!!!!! Anyone who thinks like this shouldn't own dogs. They don't understand them. Don't even understand the basics of or the right to self preservation.

[Renee750il]

I appreciate the input from Kady, Staci and the other "pitbull mind" people -- and where they're coming from, even though I don't necessarily always see the same issues through the same lens.

I love the fact that Tallulah has so much inborn bite inhibition, and it's that mindset that developed lines of dogs with it.

On the other hand, I've never danced around the fact that, to me, a bite isn't the end of the world, or necessarily that big of a deal when the facts of what caused it come to light (if they ever do). But on the other side of the spectrum, I do keep a breed that WILL bite -- fortunately, mine have been very correct in temperament and DON'T bite unless someone doesn't stop when they're told.

Kady's right -- a forum is about sharing different opinions and learning from each other. At least this one is. That's how we began and how we got where we are now.

[rubygirl]

Originally Posted by Barbara!

Sorry, but I don't agree with "if a dog has food aggression, kill it". That sentiment seems like one of someone who is too lazy to rehabilitate the animal.



Are you suggesting that those who DON'T believe that aren't of sound mind?

People who have children and would take a chance at having a dog at that level of aggression around... yes I would say that they are not particularly sound minded.

[rubygirl]

Originally Posted by Greenmagick

Yes, if a dog I raised and worked with daily OUT OF THE BLUE reacted like this and bit, I would probably PTS. This is NOT the case though. This is a dog who bit AFTER being pushed into it and really not being left any option.

(honestly, for the poor dog's sake it would probably be better off PTS than to be living a life in fear)

I've seen dogs pushed MUCH FARTHER and not bit like this. I also would like to note that this wasn't a bite it was an attack. The dog keeps going even when Cesar desists. That's NOT normal.

[Doberluv]

Originally Posted by Laurelin

Yes, I see a big big big difference between a provoked bite and just random aggression.



Yep. You push any being long enough, they will defend themselves from a perceived threat.



And that. Honestly, I think it's absolutely CRAZY to expect a dog to just sit there and take what Cesar was doing to that dog without the dog reacting back.

I will go even farther. I would bet money if you put Mia in that situation, she would have bitten Cesar. I don't think she would have landed multiple bites or broken the skin like this dog, but I think she would have bitten. Would she bite me for doing the same thing? Not likely. But a stranger coming up and posturing over her then hitting her in the side, pursuing her, putting his hand on her muzzle, staring her down- she would at least probably have snapped at him. I would not expect any dog to tolerate that behavior. I know some would. Summer would- she'd be up in Cesar's face trying to give him kisses but she's an exceedingly friendly dog to a fault. Most dogs I've had would not have tolerated that behavior.

Someone on another forum put it quite succinctly.

I go back through my mind to all the dogs I've had. None ever bit anyone (for RG) and we took food away from them sometimes, I'm sure....for some reason or another. (don't remember specifically). Or took a bone from the dog. BUT...they must have learned somewhere that it wasn't going to be the end of the world, so....they just didn't bite. However, if they had been mistreated; yelled at, frightened, threatened, hit in the face, kicked in the ribs in relation/association to their food or bones, if they had once given a warning and someone had slammed them for it, cornered them... I'd bet money that any one of them could easily have behaved as that dog did. I guarantee you that dog has a history of being mistreated and has had punishing reactions to warnings and much milder RG displays. And now it's escalated to this point. Add CM to the mix and you've really got a damaged dog. That dog was mild to average compared to dogs I've seen and worked with. He tried not to bite, he put it off as best he could... but CM kept on intimidating, threatening and attacking him.

I put none ever bit anyone for RG because I had a child hood dog that bit a kid (pre-teen age). As it turned out, neighbors saw him tormenting my dog, who was in his own yard... with a stick...poking him, scaring him. That was the only time he ever bit anyone. He was a sweet dog. But he was being attacked as far as he knew. When are people going to get it that not all dogs (or any animal) have exactly the same tolerance level for s!!! like this? And not all dogs are genetically disposed to backing down and lying on their backs to be punching bags? It really p!sses me off how people expect dogs to be something they're not.