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  #71  
Old 09-12-2012, 12:29 PM
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Using ONLY (as in, without anything else) R+ for everything doesn't always work for every single dog. Sometimes you have to incorporate in other methods. THAT is what I was saying.
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  #72  
Old 09-12-2012, 12:42 PM
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Positive reinforcement isn't really a "method." It refers to one part, one quadrant of operant conditioning, which IS the way all animals with a brain learn and operate. So, it does work on all dogs. When someone thinks it doesn't work, it's because they don't have a full enough understanding of the laws of learning. You do not have to punish a dog...any dog in order for it to learn. In fact, it can have the opposite effect and a whole lot of other negative results. You can if you want. You also can take away privileges or not give a reinforcer. But you don't have to add in a punisher. If they don't get something they like out of some behavior they do and they never ever get something good from it, that behavior will not continue. You don't have to punish to keep them from engaging in and getting a pay off for a behavior you don't like.

I don't really know how to describe methods. Methods, I guess are little variations with timing perhaps, or some people are clever in choosing good motivators for their dog. Some people know how to keep their dog in non-distracting environments at first so they're more likely to succeed and thus get more reinforcement which breeds more success. Some people are very good at this and some aren't as savvy. But whatever the small details, the concepts of what they call positive reinforcement training work on all dogs. Positive reinforcement training, as a method is probably not the best or most accurate terminology. I think method might refer more to little idiosyncrasies or other small details.
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  #73  
Old 09-12-2012, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Barbara! View Post
Using ONLY (as in, without anything else) R+ for everything doesn't always work for every single dog. Sometimes you have to incorporate in other methods. THAT is what I was saying.
But that is what is untrue. It may be faster or even appropriate for different reasons to use other" methods" but its never because it doesnt work. There is nothing that a dog MUST get punished for to learn, but sometimes its worth it because of the situation.

example - one of my trainer friends switched to R+. She has since used a shock collar on one dog. Big dog, old frail handler. Dog was starting to lunge at cars and they lived in the city. Not at all a safe situation so she used it. Did the dog NEED the shock collar to learn? No, but the trainer felt in that particular situation it was worth it.
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Old 09-12-2012, 12:48 PM
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But that is what is untrue. It may be faster or even appropriate for different reasons to use other" methods" but its never because it doesnt work. There is nothing that a dog MUST get punished for to learn, but sometimes its worth it because of the situation.

example - one of my trainer friends switched to R+. She has since used a shock collar on one dog. Big dog, old frail handler. Dog was starting to lunge at cars and they lived in the city. Not at all a safe situation so she used it. Did the dog NEED the shock collar to learn? No, but the trainer felt in that particular situation it was worth it.
Well explained. *like example* Don't like shock collars. lol. But I will concede in this case.

To say PR doesn't work on all dogs is simply inaccurate. I don't know Barbara what your education is in animal behavior. But most behaviorists with PhDs and veterinary behaviorists, people like me who have taken lots of animal behavior in school, specialize in dog behavior, and gone on to work with dogs professionally in training and behavior modification will tell you the same thing.
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  #75  
Old 09-12-2012, 12:58 PM
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This is really getting annoying. Once again, I never said that PR doesn't work. (4th time I've said this.) Not once. I said using ONLY PR doesn't work on all dogs. As in PR alone without any of the other quadrants. You don't have to commit to only one quadrant...you can use them with each other. You can use one of them, two of them, all of them...all at the same time. Does using PR alone without any of the quadrants work? Sure, for some dogs. Other dogs require more than one quadrant to better grasp what you are trying to teach them. Hence my "all dogs are different" post. As an example, I, myself, have two dogs that respond solely to positive reinforcement. I have a dog that responds to positive reinforcement, but required a little positive punishment, and another dog that needed positive reinforcement along with positive punishment and negative punishment.
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  #76  
Old 09-12-2012, 01:07 PM
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Once again, I never said that PR doesn't work. (4th time I've said this.) Not once.
We all get this. Nobody has said that you did say it didn't work.

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I said using ONLY PR doesn't work on all dogs.
This is what is wrong. It DOES and CAN work on all dogs, it is the individual trainer who might not like the method---but ALL dogs can be trained positively.
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  #77  
Old 09-12-2012, 01:30 PM
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I said using ONLY PR doesn't work on all dogs.
This is what people are rebutting. They're not claiming you said PR doesn't work. They're saying that with the proper motivators, all the time in the world, and no other concerns (such as safety, e.g. the old gentlemen with the large lunging dog), then using only PR WOULD work on all dogs.
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:30 PM
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i'll say it again ALL training is a MIX of positive reinforcement of desireable behavior & aversive consequences for undesirable behavior. even if ALL you do is ignore your dog, it is still an adverse or negative experience the dog "suffers" that is intended to deter a repeat of the undesirable action. there is NO SUCH thing as 100% aversive or 100% positive reinforcement training. and some dogs (generally the very smart & stubborn) need stronger aversives than others especially to achieve fast, long lasting, reliability of avoidance of HIGHLY undesirable behavior. for example hotshots, or knotted ropes to break up fighting between hounds or curs, not stopping it immediately & permanently can have disaterous results. so the aversive applied is extreme. however a GAME dog will NOT respond to such aversives & will in fact react as though recieving PR. some dogs will react just like a game dog and require a different method of training. tell me again how all brains work the same.
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  #79  
Old 09-12-2012, 01:36 PM
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There is no such thing as purely positive training.

And sorry, but not only does my mentors experience disagree with you, but my own experience as well.
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  #80  
Old 09-12-2012, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Pops2 View Post
i'll say it again ALL training is a MIX of positive reinforcement of desireable behavior & aversive consequences for undesirable behavior. even if ALL you do is ignore your dog, it is still an adverse or negative experience the dog "suffers" that is intended to deter a repeat of the undesirable action. there is NO SUCH thing as 100% aversive or 100% positive reinforcement training. and some dogs (generally the very smart & stubborn) need stronger aversives than others especially to achieve fast, long lasting, reliability of avoidance of HIGHLY undesirable behavior. for example hotshots, or knotted ropes to break up fighting between hounds or curs, not stopping it immediately & permanently can have disaterous results. so the aversive applied is extreme. however a GAME dog will NOT respond to such aversives & will in fact react as though recieving PR. some dogs will react just like a game dog and require a different method of training. tell me again how all brains work the same.

What do fighting dogs find reinforcing???? Fighting, right? So, if they've already been reinforced in some way for fighting or they're in the middle of a fight, doing what they like to do, you're light years too late in trying to stop that behavior. Of course, fighting dogs isn't something you are trying to avoid altogether, so there is inconsistency. With this or other kinds of fighting behavior, dogs that are selectively bred to fight, training of any kind isn't likely to compensate wholly for that instinct. That's where management comes in. You are managing a situation when you club your dogs when they're fighting. You are not training them.

Yes, it is a fact that all organisms with a brain operate under a basic set of laws of behavior. I will not argue something that is a fact, only something that is a matter of opinion. Positive punishment...adding something that stops a behavior is not the same thing as removing something from the dog that the dog likes. Adding something aversive which is on the harsh side is not needed for any dog to learn new behaviors or to modify behavior.
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