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  #61  
Old 09-11-2012, 09:10 PM
Pops2 Pops2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Aleron View Post
This sort of discussion always makes me think of this quote that Sue Ailsby included in her seminar handout years ago. I find this so true with dogs and their owners.

"One surprising but useful by-product of being a doting parent is that a child doted upon gets upset when the parent is unhappy with him. The more cheerful and satisfied the normal state of the parent, the easier it is to register displeasure. Thus, a surly parent may have to resort to terrible measures to convince the child that there is any loss of satisfaction, since none was apparent anyway; but a happy parent may be able to instill awe and remorse with only a severe look" - Judith Martin in Miss Manners Guide to Rearing Perfect Children
there is a whole lotta truth to that & applies equally to dogs
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  #62  
Old 09-11-2012, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Aleron View Post
This sort of discussion always makes me think of this quote that Sue Ailsby included in her seminar handout years ago. I find this so true with dogs and their owners.

"One surprising but useful by-product of being a doting parent is that a child doted upon gets upset when the parent is unhappy with him. The more cheerful and satisfied the normal state of the parent, the easier it is to register displeasure. Thus, a surly parent may have to resort to terrible measures to convince the child that there is any loss of satisfaction, since none was apparent anyway; but a happy parent may be able to instill awe and remorse with only a severe look" - Judith Martin in Miss Manners Guide to Rearing Perfect Children
That's a great quote.
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I think u need some angry school.
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That's what we do here. We're emotionally invested in each other and each other's dogs, the joys and the sorrows.
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  #63  
Old 09-11-2012, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Pops2 View Post
if this were true there'd be no such thing as dyslexia nor special education. brains are living tissue and have general functions in common but ultimately each one is individualized and continues to individualize throught the life of the being.
Thats why I included the 4 quadrants after the part you bolded. All animals respond to stimulus. If its rewarding enough, they do it again, if its negative enough, they dont (very simplistic explanation but that was my point)
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  #64  
Old 09-12-2012, 11:07 AM
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Just to be clear on this, positive reinforcement is NOT permissive. Many people get it mixed up, and many people do it "wrong" and are very permissive which isn't effective unless your dog is a marshmallow schmoo. I've never once laid a finger on a dog to correct it, but I've never let them have their way either. It requires a lot of intense managing of a puppy's surroundings as they are proofed in different situations with escalating distractions to work without having to do corrections. I like the results though, as they come out of it oozing with confidence and pretty bombproof, with deep trust and respect between us (have done two service dogs this way).

NILIF is a great positive way of establishing who's in control of resources without delivering aversives to the dog. When my dogs are puppies, their ration of food for the day goes into my pocket and they have to earn it. Every. Single. Kibble. Kaia never had teenage brainfarts, but Strider had to go back to earning his individual kibbles when he hit 7 or 8 months. lol.

That being said, sometimes when a dog is having a reactive moment and it's something you haven't proofed against, you just do whatever has to be done to make them stop and remove them from the situation. Then don't put them back in until they're proofed against it so it doesn't happen again. That I don't see as training. It's more crisis management. You stop your dog from biting someone/another dog/chasing stock/cars/etc. and take measures to make sure it never happens again. If that means using a leash pop or choking it off another dog, or whatever, you do what you have to to keep everyone safe. I don't really expect most dogs to be learning when they're that amped up though. The training comes later after they've calmed down and out of the situation.



It's just that attitude, "You must be the alpha (boss) and have a "firm" (translation:heavy hand) to show him who's boss" that sets the stage for a dog to become defensive and dangerous.

I hate that "real" dog thing too. I remember that nonsense from years back on Chaz. How stupid is that?!
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  #65  
Old 09-12-2012, 12:06 PM
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Every organism with a brain, (from a fish to a human and every animal with in between) operates under the same behavioral laws of learning. A sparrow might not find a bone as enjoyable or motivating as a dog would. He would prefer some bird seed. A fish wouldn't like being scratched behind the ears. He'd rather swim freely in clean water.

Every dog operates under the laws of learning. Reinforcement for a behavior greatly increases the odds of that behavior reoccurring. Lack of reinforcement or no pay-off decreases the occurrence of a particular behavior in the future. Punishment also can stop a behavior. But punishment, especially harsh punishment carries with it some serious and detrimental baggage in training dogs and runs a great risk of causing aggression. This has been a major source of my training & behavior consulting business. Lots of Cesar Milan followers found themselves in trouble.

A lot of people don't keep their mind on what they're doing. Count the number of times a day your dog gets reinforced for a behavior you don't like. Maybe he doesn't get reinforced by you...maybe all by himself. Or something in the environment gives him a pay-off. Maybe the behavior itself is enjoyable and he's permitted to engage in it, even for a short time. And by the time you notice, he's already been reinforced for it a number of times. It's a full time job to stay on top of every little thing. Just reinforcing one or two behaviors out of a whole day's worth isn't going to guarantee flawless behavior. So take the average dog owner who is even less on top of it than we are, who doesn't have a clue about behavior and training, it's amazing how well most dogs turn out anyway. But those who rely on punishment; threats, scare tactics, harsh voices, pain are opening their dogs up for a lot of potential problems and not a very good bond. A lot of people too, only notice rotten behavior and punish it without giving an alternative and rewarding behavior choice. My dogs might do a few things I don't like, but their day is also filled with and I emphasize reinforcing behaviors, so they tend to do those more which squeezes out the time remaining for unwanted behaviors. A lot of people don't do this and think positive reinforcement training is ignoring unwanted behaviors, bribing with cookies, letting their dog do what it wants. That's IGNORANCE for you...Pure, unadulterated ignorance.

Learning to set a dog's environment up so he's less apt to fail (thus inexperienced owner/trainer feels a need to punish) prevents failure and increases success for which more reinforcement can be added. Preventing unwanted behavior in the first place lessens the chance of the dog being reinforced for it and the behavior will not develop. Or...if it's just in it's infancy, being unable to practice it and be reinforced for it anymore....will cause the behavior to extinguish. Replacing or displacing unwanted behavior with incompatible and desired behaviors will fill the dog's repertoire (or gas tank, if you will) with wanted behaviors. The fuller the "gas tank" is with reinforcement for wanted behavior, the less room there is for unwanted behaviors.

Scoldings, forcefulness, intimidation, threats, coercion, physical discomfort runs great risk of eroding the relationship between owner and dog, creating a dog who lacks confidence and therefore raising the odds of fearfulness and distrust. Obviously those things aren't compatible with a rock solid, trustworthy and safe animal. It also creates a situation where the dog behaves well in the presence of the owner because it's unsafe to do otherwise. And increases the likelihood of the dog misbehaving in the absence of the owner....because it is safe. Dogs, in fact all living creatures do things because they're safe and don't do things because they're dangerous. Dogs are amoral. So, they're not doing the no no because they're sneaky and conniving and rationalizing it all out. They do things because it works. Period. They're animals.

If they can train wild animals, which they do in zoos and wild life farms where they have to be able to handle them for veterinary reasons and moving them etc, with clicker training, without punishment (It's pretty hard to punish a large sea animal at Sea World) you must know that you can train the most biddable domestic animal, the dog, designed by nature to work with humans without intimidation, physical punishment, force and so forth. In fact, it's done ALL THE TIME.

No, not every dog has the same set of motivators exactly or the same drives. But every dog can be trained using proper and correct methods without the use of pain, threats, intimidation, scary things. I have trained a lot of dogs and all I ever really need is adding the good thing, preventing or removing the good thing, removing a bad thing that's already happening naturally in the environment. But I don't need to add a bad thing.

Every dog works the same way. Different motivators, different temperaments, various degrees of distraction toward things, various drives.... so naturally there are some variations with the details. But the basics, the concepts and laws of learning work the same way on all animals. It is up to the owner or trainer to discover the dog's motivations, what excites him, what he doesn't like, his fears, at what distance is he fearful of something and a whole lot more. But the laws of learning behavior are like the laws of physics. Gravity causes an apple to fall from the tree. Consequences... or lack thereof....cause and effect....creates or extinguishes a behavior in all living organisms with a brain.

So yeah...I get weary of people saying positive reinforcement training methods don't work on "all" dogs. If they follow the laws of learning, they do. You wouldn't say the laws of physics, gravity in particular doesn't apply to one kind of apple, but not the other, would you?
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

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  #66  
Old 09-12-2012, 12:08 PM
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Once again....3rd time now, I think? I never said positive reinforcement doesn't work. I never even insinuated that. IMO, that is what everyone should start out with, and then go from there. It is possible to train a dog entirely using only R+. And then you have some dogs that require the use of R-, P+, or P-. I never once said that R+ didn't work, I said that there are other ways to approach training a dog and not everyone has to use purely R+.
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  #67  
Old 09-12-2012, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by StephyMei1112 View Post
One of the most sumptuous looking dogs in existence...but indeed also one of the most primitive and fierce. I like the fact that they have not been modified or monkeyed around with by mankind (for the most part - I'm not sure if they were bred a different manner for the Red Army back in that period).

To everyone here: I AM NOT GETTING A CO FOR MY NEXT DOG!! NOT FOR AT LEAST 15 YEARS AND WITH A HELL OF ALOT MORE EXPERIENCE! This is just to satisfy my curiosity and awe with them for now...

I know alot of LGD's can be really typical as puppies and social and funny - but around 18 - 24 months something just goes off in them and they start showing DA/their guardian side starts emerging. I was wondering about Ovcharka's as puppies - and if their guard instincts kick in at a very early age or if they grow out of their puppyhood earlier than other dogs.

Also, I've heard alot of mixed info about this - are they OK if properly trained and socialized with strangers just passing by them and such? Like not getting up in their faces or anything but like just out on a walk etc I think they are supposed to be aloof and indifferent with cue from their handler and said passer by minding their own f&cking business and not getting in either the owner or dog's face.



Sh!t that's gorgeous...<333

My heart is totally the Kuvasz's - but this beast is just magnificent...
It is true. Some breeds need copious amounts of socialization and very early. Some breeds, you have to really be super consistent with, more so than with some other breeds or you can get into a situation where you can't handle the dog. Some breeds aren't as forgiving or tolerant of mistakes or inconsistencies. You may have to do more with some of the less biddable breeds or breeds not selected to work as closely along side their owner as some others. Some of these breeds take more training work than others. But I don't equate all that with being more firm or more bossy. The training concepts that work on all dogs may need to be employed more neatly or without sloppiness if you will. These are beautiful and impressive dogs and I bet they'd make a person feel safe and protected. They wouldn't be the right breed for me...I have no need for something like that. I guess if I had a large working farm or something....
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

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  #68  
Old 09-12-2012, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Barbara! View Post
Once again....3rd time now, I think? I never said positive reinforcement doesn't work. I never even insinuated that. IMO, that is what everyone should start out with, and then go from there. It is possible to train a dog entirely using only R+. And then you have some dogs that require the use of R-, P+, or P-. I never once said that R+ didn't work, I said that there are other ways to approach training a dog and not everyone has to use purely R+.
I don't know if your post is in response to mine. But I wasn't referring to you. My post was very general and just explaining my take on the whole thing about the misconception that these big dogs need to be shown who's boss. (about the guy described by the OP) and how there are a lot of people on the Internet and in the real world... who make claims about PR with no knowledge base of what it entails.
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"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams 1776





"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

Thomas Jefferson
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  #69  
Old 09-12-2012, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
I don't know if your post is in response to mine. But I wasn't referring to you. My post was very general and just explaining my take on the whole thing about the misconception that these big dogs need to be shown who's boss. (about the guy described by the OP) and how there are a lot of people on the Internet and in the real world... who make claims about PR with no knowledge base of what it entails.
I apologize then.
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  #70  
Old 09-12-2012, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Barbara! View Post
I never said positive reinforcement doesn't work. I never even insinuated that.
Ok, but then you go on to say...

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Originally Posted by Barbara! View Post
And then you have some dogs that require the use of R-, P+, or P-.
... Which comes across as you saying they need R-, P+, and/or P- because P+ doesn't work for them. That's what people are disagreeing with, the idea that it "just doesn't work for some dogs".


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Originally Posted by Barbara! View Post
I never once said that R+ didn't work, I said that there are other ways to approach training a dog and not everyone has to use purely R+.
Again, people here are saying use what you want to use, but saying that P+ doesn't work for some dogs is not accurate. Yes there are other ways - but claiming P+ doesn't work because some dogs are "special" is spreading misinformation.
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