Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > The Dog Breeds


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #91  
Old 09-11-2012, 04:59 AM
Lyzelle's Avatar
Lyzelle Lyzelle is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,815
Default

This article raises some questions for me as well.

Quote:
When Does a Wolf Become a Dog?
or
Are AKC German Shepherds Wolf 'Hybrids' /Wolfdogs ?

by Ann Dresselhaus


I assert that ALL dogs are 'wolfdogs'. The only difference between them (besides
appearance and temperament) is the number of generations away from a 'pure'
wolf the individual canine is. The original German Shepherd studbook,
Zuchtbuch fur Deutche Schaferhunde (SZ), shows several pure wolves were
used to 'create' the breed and this was only 90 years ago! Similar events
can be uncovered for Alaskan Malamutes, Siberian Huskies, Belgian Shepherd
types, and many rarer-breed 'dogs'. German Shepherds were recently the
MOST POPULAR AKC breed. Imagine that -- a 'wolfdog' is the most popular
working/companion dog!

I think a key question to be answered is: WHEN does a 'wolf become a dog??
If she thinks ALL dogs are wolf hybrids, how can she breed something that she said is distinctly NOT a wolf hybrid? Sort of widens the pool of what she might think IS and is NOT a "Wolf Hybrid". There are many breeders that believe anything lower than 40% is NOT a wolf hybrid. So, let's say she used a Sibe with a Grandparent who was full Wolf. Does that make the Sibe a wolf hybrid or not? Slippery slope, there.

Link to full article

ETA: It IS impressive that these dogs, in only a few generations, create very wolfy looking offspring, consistently. No doubt about that. And like I said before, create all the healthy, temperament tested companion dogs you want. I'm all FOR that if it means they'll stop watering down Sibes.

But this market, feeding into the want of a wolfy looking dog...it makes me very iffy. Especially since a few of these dogs have already fallen into bad hands and muddied the waters, like Nobel Paws and other small breeders that DO add Wolf to the bloodlines. I just don't see it ending well, and I think the dogs will suffer for it.
__________________
Zander and HarleyQuinn

Last edited by Lyzelle; 09-11-2012 at 05:12 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 09-11-2012, 07:27 AM
Gempress Gempress is offline
Walks into Mordor
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 11,955
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyzelle View Post
TIf she thinks ALL dogs are wolf hybrids, how can she breed something that she said is distinctly NOT a wolf hybrid?
I think you're way off base in your interpretation of the article. She does NOT think all dogs are wolf hybrids, not in the way you're referring. In the article, she's simply stating that many domestic dogs breeds are descended from wolves. So at some point in the very early origins of many breeds, their ancestors would be what we now consider wolfdogs.

Her entire entire article is about the academic question, "When does a wolf become a dog?" She's referring to wolfdogs that are many generations removed from the original F1 cross. At what point should these crosses be considered dogs, and not wolves? Could they ever be considered dogs?

She points out the GSD as a great illustration of her point, since it apparently has included crossing to wolves on several occasions. I found it pretty interesting reading, actually. I never knew the GSD had documented outcrossings to wolves, even after being established. So, she was raising the academic question: "Should the modern GSD be considered a dog, or a wolfdog?"

I don't see anything wrong or inflammatory when the article.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 09-11-2012, 07:34 AM
Laurelin's Avatar
Laurelin Laurelin is offline
I'm All Ears
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 29,964
Default

From what I was told from the wolfdog person I know (she is very knowledgeable) that a lot of breeders will not consider something past F5 or F6 to be a wolfdog anymore. Or under 30-40% wolf content. They will class these animals as dogs. This is just in general, not saying that happened here.

The problem is they could still legally be classified as a wolfdog and thus might be illegal in a particular state. But the new owner thinks they're getting something all dog.

I have no problem with companion breeds and not really any problem with wolfdog breeds. I'm just... skeptical based on a repeating history with Utonagans, Tamaskans, Northern Inuits, etc. It seems very difficult to actually make a wolf without a wolf without adding in some wolf OR an actual wolfdog breed. Pretty much all the previous attempts were too good to be true. Without strict and transparent record keeping available, I'll be a skeptic.

I do think the health testing and temperament testing is fabulous. I just would like more transparency about the foundation stock.
__________________
Mia CGC - (5 year old Papillon)
Hank - (approx. 10 month old Spotty Dog)
Summer TG3 TIAD - (10 year old Papillon)
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 09-11-2012, 09:10 AM
AdrianneIsabel's Avatar
AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
Glutton for Crazy
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 8,893
Default

I'd own one, pretty "black wolf" dogs with an excellent family temperament. Talk about a win.
__________________
Sloan von Krigbaum IPO1 CGC BH CD NA NJ PD MJ-N RATI RATN 3/7/10 -
Shamoo NJ-N RATI RATN 3/1/98 -
Phelan du Loups du Soleil CGC RATI 6/15/13 -
Chili Brigades Brover 5/23/14 -

Arnold CGC TDI FD 6/29/04 - 07/05/13
Backup CGC HIC CD SRD SJ-N RATI 12/29/09 - 07/05/13

You were amazing, we did amazing things.


Harmony Canine, relationship based training.
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 09-11-2012, 10:04 AM
Pops2 Pops2 is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UT
Posts: 3,072
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyzelle View Post
And I did find this quote:



So it really doesn't sound like there was any true record keeping at all. Just whatever dog fit the bill.

Then this was said later on down the page:



I love how colors were main focuses on certain breeds/types.
that's just a silly complaint, even w/ breeding for work color is a selection factor. white to make the dogo more visible in the bush, black/brindle to make lurchers less visible at night, or merle to differentiate my friends stags from everyone elses.
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 09-11-2012, 11:44 AM
Kootenay's Avatar
Kootenay Kootenay is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 1,284
Default

Lyzelle keeps bringing up feeding into a bad market. Actually the breed founder is EXTREMELY picky about who gets her puppies, and preference goes to homes that will do a lot of training and get titles to prove it.
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 09-11-2012, 11:54 AM
SaraB SaraB is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 5,738
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kootenay View Post
Lyzelle keeps bringing up feeding into a bad market. Actually the breed founder is EXTREMELY picky about who gets her puppies, and preference goes to homes that will do a lot of training and get titles to prove it.
Not only that but I would much rather have people go out to buy a dog that looks like a wolf than an actual wolf hybrid.
__________________


Taboo, Zuma, Mighty Mouse, Zinga, Edgar, Zip Tie
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 09-11-2012, 12:47 PM
Xandra's Avatar
Xandra Xandra is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,799
Default

Yes, not to mention that not all people who are someone ignorant of dogs are bad owners. My guess is that even the many people who are basically just attracted to the look will superficially appreciate health and temperament testing when the benefits are explained to them by the breeder. Often that is how things go. Buyer sees a dog they like, the breeder goes through the selling points (parents are champions, parents are "traditional" and weigh 180 lbs, etc), the buyer eats it up and will happily parrot it back to you. Again these people might love their dog and take great care of it, so it would be good if they were happily telling people about how their dog is from health tested parents instead.

Of course, that is assuming the breeder is loosey goosey about where these dogs go, sounds like that may not be the case anyways.
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 09-11-2012, 12:53 PM
Kootenay's Avatar
Kootenay Kootenay is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 1,284
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xandra View Post
Of course, that is assuming the breeder is loosey goosey about where these dogs go, sounds like that may not be the case anyways.
Definitely not the case!
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 09-11-2012, 07:52 PM
Lyzelle's Avatar
Lyzelle Lyzelle is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,815
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kootenay View Post
Lyzelle keeps bringing up feeding into a bad market. Actually the breed founder is EXTREMELY picky about who gets her puppies, and preference goes to homes that will do a lot of training and get titles to prove it.
And yet several breeders ended up with her dogs? And are crossing them with wolf hybrids?
__________________
Zander and HarleyQuinn
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:30 AM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site