Caucasian Ovcharka - Page 2

Greenmagick · #11 09-10-2012, 08:51 PM

I never trust someone who says a dog has to have a "firm hand". Firm rules, boundaries, etc...sure, but firm hand does not imply anything good to me. Semantics maybe but ...

and yeah, I hate the "real dog" thing

SaraB · #12 09-10-2012, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laurelin

Haha you missed our 'only working dogs are real dogs' thread several years back. *cuddles the fake dog asleep on my couch*

I would've loved that thread since it seems that my sub-par dogs are obviously evidence that I'm a sub-par trainer. Not what I see in this thread but a general tone.

Romy · #13 09-10-2012, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StephyMei1112

]We chatted about training and I explained progressive reinforcement to him (dog doesn't want to do something - dog doesn't have to do it) - he laughed out loud and put it quite succinctly:

Just to be clear on this, positive reinforcement is NOT permissive.

Many people get it mixed up, and many people do it "wrong" and are very permissive which isn't effective unless your dog is a marshmallow schmoo. I've never once laid a finger on a dog to correct it, but I've never let them have their way either. It requires a lot of intense managing of a puppy's surroundings as they are proofed in different situations with escalating distractions to work without having to do corrections. I like the results though, as they come out of it oozing with confidence and pretty bombproof, with deep trust and respect between us (have done two service dogs this way).

NILIF is a great positive way of establishing who's in control of resources without delivering aversives to the dog. When my dogs are puppies, their ration of food for the day goes into my pocket and they have to earn it. Every. Single. Kibble. Kaia never had teenage brainfarts, but Strider had to go back to earning his individual kibbles when he hit 7 or 8 months. lol.

That being said, sometimes when a dog is having a reactive moment and it's something you haven't proofed against, you just do whatever has to be done to make them stop and remove them from the situation. Then don't put them back in until they're proofed against it so it doesn't happen again. That I don't see as training. It's more crisis management. You stop your dog from biting someone/another dog/chasing stock/cars/etc. and take measures to make sure it never happens again. If that means using a leash pop or choking it off another dog, or whatever, you do what you have to to keep everyone safe. I don't really expect most dogs to be learning when they're that amped up though. The training comes later after they've calmed down and out of the situation.

Laurelin · #14 09-10-2012, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaraB

I would've loved that thread since it seems that my sub-par dogs are obviously evidence that I'm a sub-par trainer. Not what I see in this thread but a general tone.

It was a wonderful thread. One of my all time favorites.

Greenmagick · #15 09-10-2012, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romy

Just to be clear on this, positive reinforcement is NOT permissive.

Many people get it mixed up, and many people do it "wrong" and are very permissive which isn't effective unless your dog is a marshmallow schmoo. I've never once laid a finger on a dog to correct it, but I've never let them have their way either. It requires a lot of intense managing of a puppy's surroundings as they are proofed in different situations with escalating distractions to work without having to do corrections. I like the results though, as they come out of it oozing with confidence and pretty bombproof, with deep trust and respect between us (have done two service dogs this way).

NILIF is a great positive way of establishing who's in control of resources without delivering aversives to the dog. When my dogs are puppies, their ration of food for the day goes into my pocket and they have to earn it. Every. Single. Kibble. Kaia never had teenage brainfarts, but Strider had to go back to earning his individual kibbles when he hit 7 or 8 months. lol.

That being said, sometimes when a dog is having a reactive moment and it's something you haven't proofed against, you just do whatever has to be done to make them stop and remove them from the situation. Then don't put them back in until they're proofed against it so it doesn't happen again. That I don't see as training. It's more crisis management. You stop your dog from biting someone/another dog/chasing stock/cars/etc. and take measures to make sure it never happens again. If that means using a leash pop or choking it off another dog, or whatever, you do what you have to to keep everyone safe. I don't really expect most dogs to be learning when they're that amped up though. The training comes later after they've calmed down and out of the situation.

This x100

Danefied · #16 09-10-2012, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StephyMei1112

I explained progressive reinforcement to him (dog doesn't want to do something - dog doesn't have to do it) - he laughed out loud and put it quite succinctly:

"Well, if it works for the dog - sure. But these dogs need to know who is the boss right away; no questions, no doubts. That's that. You let a CO think he's in charge as a puppy - it's huge trouble later on."

Ah... I’ll be sure to tell my friend who owns several CAS, breeds them and is a *gasp* force free trainer, that her dogs are going to take over and she’s going to be in huge trouble.

Sigh....

Dekka · #17 09-10-2012, 09:05 PM

I think if you get a CO with the attitude they need a firm hand and are 'real' dogs I don't want to live anywhere near you as you and your dog will likely be the terror of the neighbourhood!

Punishement, or overly harsh "I-am-the-boss" type training will almost definitely bite you in the butt, litteraly with a dog like this. You need to train with firm rules and a firm understanding of what is accepted and what isn't, you need a dog who respects you and is obedient. None of that requires a firm hand. It requires an active brain where you out think the dog vs over power him/her.