Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > The Dog Breeds


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-09-2012, 07:29 AM
cliffdog's Avatar
cliffdog cliffdog is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: LA (Lower Alabama)
Posts: 349
Default Were Corgis ever really working dogs?

Please, Corgi people, don't attack me.

This entry on Terrierman's blog got me thinking. http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com...ing-corgi.html
He makes some good points and I was looking to see what others thought about it.

I like Corgis; they aren't for me, but I often wish they were because I think their personalities are to die for. They are well loved and obviously are not a failure as a pet breed. But what about a working breed?

I hear lots of folks talk about the storied history of the little heel-nipping Corgi dogs, but is it true? There are many "working" breeds with a falsified history. Is the Corgi one of them?

Does anyone know of a Corgi that truly herds with as much aptitude and skill as one of the more popular herding choices such as the Border Collie (yes, I know their style of herding is different)?

A lot of the Corgi videos I've seen of "herding" does appear to be, as Terrierman mentions, simply "worrying" of the herd.
__________________

"When the power of love overcomes the
love of power, the world will know peace."
Jimi Hendrix
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-09-2012, 07:57 AM
Shai's Avatar
Shai Shai is offline
& the Muttly Crew
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,975
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffdog View Post
Please, Corgi people, don't attack me.

This entry on Terrierman's blog got me thinking. http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com...ing-corgi.html
He makes some good points and I was looking to see what others thought about it.

I like Corgis; they aren't for me, but I often wish they were because I think their personalities are to die for. They are well loved and obviously are not a failure as a pet breed. But what about a working breed?

I hear lots of folks talk about the storied history of the little heel-nipping Corgi dogs, but is it true? There are many "working" breeds with a falsified history. Is the Corgi one of them?

Does anyone know of a Corgi that truly herds with as much aptitude and skill as one of the more popular herding choices such as the Border Collie (yes, I know their style of herding is different)?

A lot of the Corgi videos I've seen of "herding" does appear to be, as Terrierman mentions, simply "worrying" of the herd.
Friend of mine has working BCs and Cardigan Corgis. They all herd. Not just be "instinct tested" on a couple sheep but actually working her small flock daily and helping friends with their flocks periodically. Unlike the BCs, the Corgis don't run herding tests but since they run ABCA tests the Corgis uhh wouldn't exactly fit in!

She especially gets out the Corgis for new ewes that have an attitude problem. One of here Corgis in particular has a force of will that is not to be reckoned with, and even the most cantankerous sheep will back down quickly and go where directed.

They are definitely different working styles and I think it's harder to find a decent working Corgi but they do exist. Seen 'em. Cardigans anyway...don't know about Pembrokes.
__________________

ARCHX U-CD Kim MX MXJ NF CL3-SF RL3/2X/1X-COE CGC -- Golden Ditzhund, b. ~Mar'07
MACH ARCHX U-CD Webster MXB MJB RL3/2X/1X-COE CGC -- Flying Houdini, b. ~Jun'07
Mira CD JH MX MXB MXJ MJB CGC WCX -- Princess Cheeseface, b. Jul'09
Lodin -- Crazy Monkeybean, b. Dec'13
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-09-2012, 08:01 AM
AdrianneIsabel's Avatar
AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
Glutton for Crazy
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 8,893
Default

I'd be careful before you take his blog as a bible.

Yes Corgis have their origin and I too know several who work trials at my coworkers lot. One we train with is from "real" stock and that dog is a total dick but it's good at telling livestock off.
__________________
Sloan von Krigbaum IPO1 CGC BH CD NA NJ PD MJ-N RATI RATN 3/7/10 -
Shamoo NJ-N RATI RATN 3/1/98 -
Phelan du Loups du Soleil CGC RATI 6/15/13 -
Chili Brigades Brover 5/23/14 -

Arnold CGC TDI FD 6/29/04 - 07/05/13
Backup CGC HIC CD SRD SJ-N RATI 12/29/09 - 07/05/13

You were amazing, we did amazing things.


Harmony Canine, relationship based training.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-09-2012, 08:07 AM
cliffdog's Avatar
cliffdog cliffdog is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: LA (Lower Alabama)
Posts: 349
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
I'd be careful before you take his blog as a bible.
I would never take anything 'as bible' written by someone who considers Purina the best dog food ever made. But for the most part I agree with his opinions on working dogs.

That's cool to hear. As an aside, if anyone has any videos of Corgis doing some serious herding, it would be great if they could share. Or old photographs of Corgis, just because old dog photos interest me a lot.
__________________

"When the power of love overcomes the
love of power, the world will know peace."
Jimi Hendrix
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-09-2012, 08:16 AM
Shai's Avatar
Shai Shai is offline
& the Muttly Crew
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,975
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
One we train with is from "real" stock and that dog is a total dick but it's good at telling livestock off.
I swear that's the Corgi niche. They can herd but they especially excel with problem livestock lol. Never Back Down seems to be the Corgi motto

Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffdog View Post
That's cool to hear. As an aside, if anyone has any videos of Corgis doing some serious herding, it would be great if they could share. Or old photographs of Corgis, just because old dog photos interest me a lot.
I have any vid but there's a thread here with old pictures of various dog breeds, and one of the posts has some Corgis. Post 18
http://chazhound.com/forums/showthre...ight=queen+old
__________________

ARCHX U-CD Kim MX MXJ NF CL3-SF RL3/2X/1X-COE CGC -- Golden Ditzhund, b. ~Mar'07
MACH ARCHX U-CD Webster MXB MJB RL3/2X/1X-COE CGC -- Flying Houdini, b. ~Jun'07
Mira CD JH MX MXB MXJ MJB CGC WCX -- Princess Cheeseface, b. Jul'09
Lodin -- Crazy Monkeybean, b. Dec'13
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-09-2012, 08:19 AM
AdrianneIsabel's Avatar
AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
Glutton for Crazy
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 8,893
Default

I'll ask my corgi friends.

If it isn't a jack that guy doesn't like it, I long ago stopped reading his drivel. Especially because of his distain for the pit bull so it's no shock he's going after another breed questioning it's validity.
__________________
Sloan von Krigbaum IPO1 CGC BH CD NA NJ PD MJ-N RATI RATN 3/7/10 -
Shamoo NJ-N RATI RATN 3/1/98 -
Phelan du Loups du Soleil CGC RATI 6/15/13 -
Chili Brigades Brover 5/23/14 -

Arnold CGC TDI FD 6/29/04 - 07/05/13
Backup CGC HIC CD SRD SJ-N RATI 12/29/09 - 07/05/13

You were amazing, we did amazing things.


Harmony Canine, relationship based training.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-09-2012, 08:26 AM
AdrianneIsabel's Avatar
AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
Glutton for Crazy
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 8,893
Default

For interest:
Quote:
The word "Corgi" is either from the Welsh "cor" (dwarf) and "ci" (dog). The "ci" becoming "gi" by normal mutation resulting in corgi. Another interpretation is that of "cur dog" or "Cur".

The Ancient Welsh Laws referred to three kinds of Curs: the Watch Cur; the Shepherd Cur; and the House Cur. The Cur was truly a very useful and well disciplined race. It is interesting to note that Iris Combe traces the origin of the Corgi back beyond its pastoral origins and connects it with the Nordic breeds. Through this connection, she traces them back to Neolitic times when islanders families lived on a diet of fish, sea-birds and their eggs, the soil on the islands being too shallow and poor for crop cultivation. Through this connection it can more easily be explained the use of the Corgi on the huge flocks of geese and ducks kept in Wales to supply the demand for fine feathers and liver for pate throughout Britain. It was well known that the Corgi was used as a heeler and a drover, especially on sheep and cattle. This could also explain the affinity many Corgis have for the water.

he corgi in Britain was used as a guardian of the farmyard and helped to collect the domestic fowls. With poultry wandering freely around the farmyard, there was always a risk of them being taken by predators, and the corgi could guard against this. They were also quite useful in gathering the flock so that they could be housed for the night. When the huge flocks of geese were reared in Wales as a source of income, they were always a problem to guard. Taking them to market was quite a chore, and the only way to get a large flock of these large, quarrelsome geese to market was to drive them along the road to the town holding the market. Corgis were unsurpassed in this task, and working in teams along roads they knew they could anticipate any moves for escape a flock might make.

. They were fairly silent workers, as too much noise would only serve to scatter the flock, yet they were strong willed enough to control any goose that lagged behind or strayed.
(Okay, WTF happened?? lol)

Quote:
On the whole they can be used for most any purpose on the farm, though as a sheep herder they are not as suitable as collies, corgis being too sharp and excitable for sheep. They have even been used as gun dogs on both feather and fur and they are most efficient ratters.
So, they were never strictly herding dogs.

Just like the wheaten terrier was actually a herding dog but never strictly. Those small islands were only allowed one dog usually by law and that dog had to do many jobs. Wheatens were everything a farm would want, it appears corgis were as well.

More comedy:
Quote:
PWCs have been around since about the 10th century. The exact breeds that were crossed have been lost in the Welsh mist. (I love to turn an occasional poetic phrase.) The goal was to develop a breed capable of herding cattle, chasing vermin, and guarding the family that would not eat the Welsh out of house and home.
Every corgi I know is a total chowhound. LOL
__________________
Sloan von Krigbaum IPO1 CGC BH CD NA NJ PD MJ-N RATI RATN 3/7/10 -
Shamoo NJ-N RATI RATN 3/1/98 -
Phelan du Loups du Soleil CGC RATI 6/15/13 -
Chili Brigades Brover 5/23/14 -

Arnold CGC TDI FD 6/29/04 - 07/05/13
Backup CGC HIC CD SRD SJ-N RATI 12/29/09 - 07/05/13

You were amazing, we did amazing things.


Harmony Canine, relationship based training.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-09-2012, 08:30 AM
Shai's Avatar
Shai Shai is offline
& the Muttly Crew
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,975
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
More comedy:
Quote:
PWCs have been around since about the 10th century. The exact breeds that were crossed have been lost in the Welsh mist. (I love to turn an occasional poetic phrase.) The goal was to develop a breed capable of herding cattle, chasing vermin, and guarding the family that would not eat the Welsh out of house and home.
Every corgi I know is a total chowhound. LOL
Because shorter legs on a normal-sized dog totally makes the dog eat less
__________________

ARCHX U-CD Kim MX MXJ NF CL3-SF RL3/2X/1X-COE CGC -- Golden Ditzhund, b. ~Mar'07
MACH ARCHX U-CD Webster MXB MJB RL3/2X/1X-COE CGC -- Flying Houdini, b. ~Jun'07
Mira CD JH MX MXB MXJ MJB CGC WCX -- Princess Cheeseface, b. Jul'09
Lodin -- Crazy Monkeybean, b. Dec'13
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-09-2012, 09:38 AM
Aleron's Avatar
Aleron Aleron is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 2,270
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffdog View Post

I hear lots of folks talk about the storied history of the little heel-nipping Corgi dogs, but is it true? There are many "working" breeds with a falsified history. Is the Corgi one of them?
I think that the idea they were selected for short legs so they would be harder to kick is a myth. I suspect the short legs (dwarfism) just happened and the dogs worked fine and were smaller, so cheaper to keep. Ziggy does eat less than my Belgians for sure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffdog View Post
Does anyone know of a Corgi that truly herds with as much aptitude and skill as one of the more popular herding choices such as the Border Collie (yes, I know their style of herding is different)?
Herding isn't as straight forward as "do they work as well as a BC but with a different style"? That is kind of like asking if Brittanys work as well as Labs but with a different style - they are bred for similar purpose but different jobs. BC style herding and GSD style herding for example are so extremely different, that a good GSD may seem like a horrible herding dog if being evaluated/worked in a typical modern manner by BC people. And a GSD who is great at the type of small flock, farm herding most people today train for may not be a great GSD herding-wise. It's not a matter of style, it's that the jobs were so different that the you can take 3 different herding breeds and have 3 very, very different approaches to herding.

This is a response to Terrierman's blog about corgis, including a video of a working Cardigan in Sweden.

http://www.prickeared.com/blog/2011/...orking-corgis/
__________________
Nikki & the Herding Breed Variety Pack
Visit Us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Alerondogs
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-09-2012, 09:41 AM
AdrianneIsabel's Avatar
AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
Glutton for Crazy
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 8,893
Default

Do you know if there were any laws that effected the size of the corgi? Like with the wheaten it was originally to look similar to a wolfhound which only nobility could legally own (due to size).
__________________
Sloan von Krigbaum IPO1 CGC BH CD NA NJ PD MJ-N RATI RATN 3/7/10 -
Shamoo NJ-N RATI RATN 3/1/98 -
Phelan du Loups du Soleil CGC RATI 6/15/13 -
Chili Brigades Brover 5/23/14 -

Arnold CGC TDI FD 6/29/04 - 07/05/13
Backup CGC HIC CD SRD SJ-N RATI 12/29/09 - 07/05/13

You were amazing, we did amazing things.


Harmony Canine, relationship based training.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:46 PM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site