Questions for bully & APBTA 'type' owners

[elegy]

DA issues are relatively common in ACDs, aren't they? I wouldn't think it'd be that big of a jump.

It makes me sad when people insist that pit bulls will MUST! get into fights. Luce and Mushroom have lived together for eight years now with a few scuffles in their youth, but never anything serious. Mushroom's been in one fight with an off-leash dog. Luce has never been in a fight. Not for lack of wishing, mind you. I'm just... careful with them. I don't know.

Originally Posted by elegy

DA issues are relatively common in ACDs, aren't they? I wouldn't think it'd be that big of a jump.

DA in ACDs and DA in APBTs are on two entirely different levels.

It makes me sad when people insist that pit bulls will MUST! get into fights.

They're a fighting breed. Better to assume that your APBT will turn on at some point than go through life with the notion that, if you "just stay positive" and "assert your leadership," it'll never happen.

Luce and Mushroom have lived together for eight years now with a few scuffles in their youth, but never anything serious.

Congrats. One of our show bred bitches decided, at almost 13 years old, that her 7 year old daughter needed to die. As of that moment in history, if the two get so much as within eye shot of each other, they'll instantaneously attempt to kill each other if given the opportunity (of course we keep them permanently separated).

Mushroom's been in one fight with an off-leash dog. Luce has never been in a fight. Not for lack of wishing, mind you. I'm just... careful with them. I don't know.

Not sure I'm too open to the implication that those whose APBTs have gotten into fights at home aren't careful with their dogs. APBT fights can very easily go from 0-60 well before you can process that something is happening, much less react fast enough to prevent the dogs from connecting. Often with no body language given by either dog to warn you that something is going to happen. There is no amount of "being careful" in any situation where an APBT is loose with another dog that will prevent a fight IF the APBT turns on, unless you're Spiderman. "If." Some of them never do. But I wouldn't bet on it...

[AdrianneIsabel]

Shamoo recently started a fight at 14 years old. Of course I genuinely blame it on her age. It was in a dark loft when the malinois ran past and bumped her and she snapped at Arnold who will never turn down a fight.

My opinion however is that an apbt or mix there of, ime, will always cause more damage in a fight than other breeds. Arnold has never been seriously hurt in fight, he's naturally too good and that is not a point of pride. This alone makes me think twice before taking the same risks with them as I would with other dogs.

*I do make exceptions. I have a client pit bull rescue who is a fantastic playmate but I am still very careful he always is playing on his terms and his style and usually only with young females.

Everyone has their own judgement, it just takes some time for it be reliable.

[Renee750il]

Something I have noted in Tallulah is the fight switch hasn't been from malice, or "I hate you and you must die" so much as it is from her getting over excited and a brawl being the next -- in her mind -- logical step. I've compared it to the stereotypical "drunken Irishman in a bar" (and yes, my background is definitely Irish, lol, although I've never even come close to being in a bar brawl ).

Honestly, Kharma's the one who really started the first fight, although Tallulah had certainly been aggravating her, and it was totally my mistake for not figuring out I needed to not allow one of them to be on the other side of the door when the other was coming in or going out. And then Kharma was just beginning to come into heat -- not giving any signs yet, but she's sneaky like that -- and she always gets weird then and the other two have learned to give her the kid glove treatment.

She and Tallulah are never on the same side of the door anymore. The only reason I was able to separate them was because neither one of them was willing to bite me to get to the other one.

Brawling is ALWAYS a possibility with a bully breed, whether it's out of anger or just a pure love of the brawl or anything in between. You just have to be aware and make arrangements to accommodate the possibilities.

[HayleyMarie]

Supervise, supervise, supervise. My dogs are never and I mean NEVER together unsuprvised. Also Mitsu is never allowed to get too over excited as she re-directs. It has happened before when she was with my parents and she got too excited over a gopher and re-directed on my parents dog. And it can easily happen again if she gets too excited. It is honestly a full time job. Play time with Teagan and Mitsu is kept gentle.

God forbit, but we are prepared if the day happend that my two dogs can't be together anymore to crate and rotate. Thankfully my house has the perfect set up for that, and Mitsu is pretty much in love with her crate, although we will have to become a litle more creative when we go camping and whats not.

But we try and set Mitsu up for sucess as much as possible. But you still have to be prepared.

[JacksonsMom]

This is a bit OT, but rather than making a new thread...

I used to think it was wrong to somewhat stereotype Pit Bulls in terms of DA. I had seen it when I first joined a few dog forums, and simply did not believe it, or want to.

Is it sad now that at the dog park, I pretty much automatically leave when a pittie comes in? Now, usually I bring Jackson on the little side anyways, but if there's only two or three other bigger dogs there that I scope out first, I do have him on the big side (I meet up with a friends boston terrier/beagle mix who is too rough for small dogs). She thinks I'm being "breedist" - I know she doesn't understand. But I gave her some info, and some links to a few pittie rescues who do NOT allow pits in dog parks, etc, and she does understand where I'm coming from.

I never wanted to be "that person" but I would never forgive myself if I did not go against instinct and something happened to my dog. I know ANY breed can potentially snap, especially at a dog park, but I consider myself a good reader of dog body language, and I know that personally my dog stays away from any potential trouble. But sometimes I feel like a giant douche, but ever since reading stuff online, I simply don't trust them around my dog. I have no issue with them with just me.

But, like, my aunt has a now 10 year old pittie who has spent lots of time with small dogs and other dogs in his life, no issues. But now I do have a fear.

Do you think this fear is justified when it comes to protecting my dog? or am I just reading too much on the internet? lol.

[Paige]

I assume all dogs I encounter are out to eat mine so no I don't think you are a breedist. I love dogs. I love Pit Bulls. I don't assume all dogs, especially not all Pit Bulls, are going to love my dog. He seems to have a target that screams EAT ME on him so it's put me a little on edge.

I'm rambling here. While I agree that it is sad that so many people label all PBs as DA I think for the safety of the dogs it's better to play it safe than not.

[Aleron]

Originally Posted by SevenSins

DA in ACDs and DA in APBTs are on two entirely different levels.

I don't know that it is necessarily true that no dog could ever be as DA as the APBTs and other such breeds. Really once DA gets to a certain level, there;s not much worse it could get. I have known or heard of corgis and whippets who have killed another dog in a fight. I had two GSD bitches who would have fought to the death if they had been allowed to.

Originally Posted by SevenSins

Congrats. One of our show bred bitches decided, at almost 13 years old, that her 7 year old daughter needed to die. As of that moment in history, if the two get so much as within eye shot of each other, they'll instantaneously attempt to kill each other if given the opportunity (of course we keep them permanently separated).

This is pretty much exactly what happened with my GSD girls, except they were much younger. One of those two dogs was also unwilling to accept any signal of submission from other mature bitches who lived in the house once she determined they must no longer be there.

I do think the mindset of "never trust a APBT not to fight" is a good one. I just don't think one can assume if you don't know APBTs, you don't know real DA.

Originally Posted by Aleron

I don't know that it is necessarily true that no dog could ever be as DA as the APBTs and other such breeds.

No, I'm sure that there are occasionally individuals in other breeds that can match the level of DA seen in many APBTs, but as a general rule it doesn't happen. There's also the tenacity and power behind it that most breeds just don't have.

Really once DA gets to a certain level, there;s not much worse it could get.

I don't know about that one, I've seen some pretty extreme cases, but those are rare for any breed.

I had two GSD bitches who would have fought to the death if they had been allowed to.

Bit of a side topic, but that seems to be becoming more and more common in GSDs; Is it just that GSD people are more willing to discuss DA openly and that's always been an issue, or is that something relatively "recent" (last decade or so) being perpetuated in various breeding programs? Just seems like I've heard that a lot more lately than ever, especially in the past few years...

I just don't think one can assume if you don't know APBTs, you don't know real DA.

Oh I never said that, I've seen some hellishly DA non-APBTs (Akita bitch fight, anyone?). In terms of relative commonality though, in most breeds...

[Aleron]

Originally Posted by SevenSins

Bit of a side topic, but that seems to be becoming more and more common in GSDs; Is it just that GSD people are more willing to discuss DA openly and that's always been an issue, or is that something relatively "recent" (last decade or so) being perpetuated in various breeding programs? Just seems like I've heard that a lot more lately than ever, especially in the past few years...

AFAIK SSA has always been in the breed. It is actually pretty widespread in the breed and found in all lines (German show and working, American, Pet). Reading the selection criteria that was sometimes used to choose the bets of the best GSDs or which males would be best to improve certain traits, it isn't hard to see where the "never say die" attitude can come from in the breed. They should have a very strong fight drive in their work. Which when you have that with a dog who is intolerant of sharing resources with same sex dogs, things can get ugly pretty fast. I do think there is more acceptance of it as time passes. Many GSD owners tend to be the sort who believe in being the be all end all alpha to their dogs. For such people, having dogs who will try to kill each other given a chance can seem like a failure of their whole philosophy of raising dogs.

I love GSDs and some of the things I love about them probably stem from what makes them prone to DA. The reason I no longer have a GSD is because of the tendency towards SSA towards household dogs. I guess that would be one thing that is different about GSDs and APBTs - the most serious sort of fighting with GSDs is usually personal. It's directed towards same sex dogs they live with or sometimes towards strange dogs attempting to come into their yard. Jora was my most SSA dog by far but she was pretty disinterested in strange dogs...unless they were really looking for a fight. I took her to daycare with me and never had a real issue with her there. Although occasionally when she'd see two dogs getting into it out and about, she would be extremely happy at the thought of getting involved LOL Still unlike with the household dogs, she could be told to stay out of it with strange dogs. Household dogs though, it was on if she got out with them. And she immediately would go for the neck/face of the other dog, get as good of a grip as she could and start trying to flip them. Very serious fighter unfortunately. Her and the other GSD were the absolute worst though because they were both entirely committed to the fight in the same way.

So yeah, there is definitely some serious DA found in other breeds and just about any breed can have individuals who are extremely DA. I think the reason for it is often different depending on the background of the breed. Like how it's often personal with GSDs but that is often not the case APBTs (although like with your two girls, it can be).