Breed bans

[Emily]

Originally Posted by Kilter

The ban is actually at my work. It's a kennel, and the dogs are usually in playgroups for the day (monitored), and in suites at night. They've taken pitties before, usually without issues, but a month ago had an issue with one attacking and injuring a dog through a fence. No signs of an issue, no growling or fence fighting in the weeks before this, then a huge vet bill to repair the dog's ear. When there has been an issue it's like that. Other breeds usually have been fine, or if there's a fight, there's no blood or major damage.

With the current setup there's just too many risks even if that sort of dog was kept totally separated, there's no way to keep the dog totally isolated - when dogs are coming in and out they 'can' stick their faces in enough for another dog to snap, and feet/tails/small heads can go under the fences inside the building. The dogs are moved usually off leash to pens through a set of gates and isles, so they go past other dogs in the process.

When they expand they are going to make some more traditional style kennels for that sort of dog, but for now it's just not safe.

Sounds like a problem with your set up? I work at a kennel that does daycare style boarding (out during the day, crates at night). (I don't like it, nor do I particularly care for running dogs in groups of 20 dogs or so, FWIW, but I have so much say in how we do things and we keep our dogs safe, so... *shrug* *sigh*) I don't know what kind of fencing you have but if a dog can stick its face through it, I'd be worried. Because the fact of the matter is that even a dog you've temperament tested can get weird when you'll be boarding it for 10 days - I've seen it happen. We had dog that was staying with us for like 2 weeks because his owner had a fire. The dog was fine for the first week, and then randomly lashed out and put a hole in another dog's ear, and proceeded to attempt that behavior for the duration of his stay. Obviously he was sick of being boarded (understandable!), but the problem is that he wouldn't offer any warning before attacking, so he had to be totally isolated. And he was a Grade A mutt, very difficult to distinguish a primary breed even.

I think ANY kennel or daycare facility should have the means to keep at least one dog isolated to the point that another dog should not be able to stick face or limb into its space, in case of an emergency.

If you feel you need to ban a breed(s) for the time being before correcting the set up, then so be it, but frankly, I've seen plenty of DA mutts, and when you get one of those, you'll be back to square one. Wouldn't it be more useful to not board DA dogs? (We don't! I tell them this is not the right place for their dog and send to a place that doesn't do group play and has kennel runs with solid walls.)

I'm not trying to be nasty and I hope that comes through in the post. I work in the business and I know what it's like. We've had to kick out our fair share of bully type dogs. And I know that nobody and no place is perfect. But I really do believe that banning a breed(s) won't even be a bandaid over the real problem, which is that there's no isolation set up even for an emergency. Just IMO after having several mixes and even one Golden display signs of rising DA when they booked for an extended boarding stay.

[Kilter]

Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel

If your work is not educated or capable of housing potentially aggressive dogs then I think they should ban then but I think it should be an admission of fault on the caretakers part, not the breed.

We train, we refuse to run 40+ dog play groups, so we're a different world but we accept pit bulls with excitement because we're educated in containment, control, management, and know our limitations as well as theirs.

It's just frustrating when a human screws up and says "well the dog caused it." No, you failed to be there to supervise interaction or contain the dogs properly when unable to supervise and now an entire breed gets another bad rap.

It's not a staffing issue, we've had a lot of dogs with issues in the past and deal with them all the time - if they show signs of not playing nice, or not working in a group we move them. Usually it's quiet enough to move a dog to a pen by themselves, and only one pen is 'small' at 15 feet by 30 feet, the rest are quite a bit bigger. Usually it's a group of 6 or so dogs in a pen/yard and someone out there keeping an eye on things.

The issue is we don't have the setup to contain/manage that sort of dog safely - the last issue happened when the pitty was by himself in a big yard, and someone went out to get a dog and bring it in from another pen. She was walking the dog past the pitty's run and he went at the fence and managed to get the other dog's ear through the fence, and it took her and another person to get him to let go.

Rather than having things like that happening again and having more people out there with a negative pitty story they've opted to not take them in.

[JustaLilBitaLuck]

Originally Posted by mrose_s

Never, because they are based on completley the wrong idea. Breed bans are knee jerk reaction and a band aid solution to the bigger problem of uneducated, irresponsible owners making bad choices regarding what breed they take on and how they raise them after that.

This.

Originally Posted by elegy

But yes, who is to say the dog is a pit bull and not a boxer/lab x? There are so many gray areas and so many what ifs?

And this.

I also don't think specific breeds or sizes of dog should be banned from apartments or townhouses or what have you. It really is dependent on the individual dog and their individual owner - not breeds as a whole.

[Emily]

Originally Posted by Kilter

The issue is we don't have the setup to contain/manage that sort of dog safely -

The problem I see is that "that sort of dog" can come in many shapes and many of them don't fit the bill of a "pit bull", and some will not show that they are "that sort of dog" until you've already admitted them. No, obviously, you shouldn't take "that sort of dog" unless you can do so safely, but banning pit bulls doesn't guarantee anything.

[Kilter]

Emily - it's the same setting where I work, but not huge groups at all. Dogs can't stick their faces through, the spacing is 2 by 4 inches I think. If it was a different setting it wouldn't be an issue and I think when they do expand they'll build as they need things to be, but for now it's not going to happen. They do ask if the dog has a history of aggression, does the dog go to boarding/daycare/off leash parks and so on when screening, and we've seen many dogs go kennel goofy and worked with them, I know what you mean. But like anything else, if there's people going around saying 'I took my dog there and it got attacked' then it's not going to help their income...

[Emily]

Originally Posted by Kilter

Emily - it's the same setting where I work, but not huge groups at all. Dogs can't stick their faces through, the spacing is 2 by 4 inches I think. If it was a different setting it wouldn't be an issue and I think when they do expand they'll build as they need things to be, but for now it's not going to happen. They do ask if the dog has a history of aggression, does the dog go to boarding/daycare/off leash parks and so on when screening, and we've seen many dogs go kennel goofy and worked with them, I know what you mean. But like anything else, if there's people going around saying 'I took my dog there and it got attacked' then it's not going to help their income...

2"x4" is a pretty darn big gap, I'd say. I'm not a fan of our few chain link fences and they're way tighter than that. Many dogs can get a muzzle or limb through there. Even slapping some hardware cloth over that could make things much safer in the short run.

Believe me, I hear you about business and safety. I'm just doubtful that a breed ban will rectify the situation, is all.

I haven't read or posted on this thread because I feel that "breed" is utterly subjective. There are dogs who raised by breeders to be a particular type of dog. I imagine the females are monitered or kept in some kind of seclusion so they don't go all frisky with an unknown dog. Then the breeder can have a precise family tree of this dog and that dog and that dog, making a more or less exact family tree of that particular kind of dog.

But by and large dogs are mixes to some degree. So breedism becomes purely perception...does that dog LOOK like a rottweiler, a dobie, something in the pit bull idea? I've seen GSD's in public that give me the creeps, but I also remember GSD's I've known who were gentle lap dogs in private. An aggressive dog is dangerous, but it's the deed not a particular breed.

[AdrianneIsabel]

Why was the dog on leash allowed so close to a dog separated for aggression?

I handle a lot of DA dogs at work and we're big on DINOS here, no matter the breed or reason.

I guess I still see it as the fault of the people trusted to care for these dogs.

Accidents happen but placing the blame on the dog when the human took a chance isn't fair.

I do agree though without the right containment a facility shouldnt have DA dogs of any sort.

[Miakoda]

So you are ok banning "pit bulls". You do realize that it is not a breed, don't you? Do you know how many breeds you will have to ban because they fall under the "pit bull" label? Where do you draw the line, especially with mixed breeds and even more breeds that fit the government's description of "pit bulls"?

Rules need to be in place in regard to dog aggressive dogs, prey-driven dogs, territorial dogs, etc. without singling out a minute handful of breeds. Because while you clap yourself on the back for a job well done, someone's Collie just attacked a Chihuahua and left it with its intestines exposed, while someone's Golden Retriever just attempted to bite a kennel worker.

[Kilter]

The dog had NOT shown any signs of DA before the attack. He had been out in a group throughout his stay, had other dogs in the laneway where it happened, had dogs moved through there and back, and even the dog that was attacked was through there earlier in the day, no issues.

Had there been any signs of an issue, the dog would be brought inside and put in a pen just in case - I do that all the time if there's any sort of fence fighting or otherwise. If a dog is even annoying another dog it's moved/rotated to find a better suited group.

If moving dogs past a fence with a bully type breed that is not showing signs of any DA is a 'risk' then it's not the right facility for those breed types at this time. I'd rather not board them than have them get a bad rap as a breed.