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  #11  
Old 07-18-2012, 07:58 PM
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Aleron Aleron is offline
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I hope it catches on! Because, like Kady said.. it's all about who is on the end of the leash - and NOT the dog end Maybe owner/handlers will have a shot now!
It's all about who's on the other end of the leash? I've managed to finish multiple dogs, get a couple GrCHs, placements and even RWB at Nationals, BOB/BOS over specials, win under some of the most well known judges out there and I'm an owner/handler. I've also gotten points/majors on quite a few other breeds, sometimes the first time I've ever taken them in. A friend of mine just got her dog's bronze GrCH, he's been ranked in the Top Ten, has AOMs from the National and Eukanuba. Not only is she an owner handler but this is her first and only show dog, first dog she's ever competed with in anything.

I didn't do as well when I first started. I wasn't good at presenting my dogs and my dogs were not necessarily in the best show condition coat wise (Loki spent the first half of her life looking like a Blackenois). I also never considered researching judges and showing to those my dog had the best shot under or at least not going to judges who consistently like a very different type than my dog (not that I would've known how to determine which those judges were anyway).

Are there politics in conformation shows? Sure there are. There's politics in just about everything. There are some breeds that professional handlers have a huge advantage in. And some judges who definitely make political decisions. But there's also plenty of judges who do put up what they liked, especially at the class level. Just because a judge puts up a dog that you don't care for doesn't mean they did so for political reasons. They may have put up the dog with a gay tail because they felt his virtues were the best in the ring. A few times my dogs have been beaten by dogs who I wouldn't have even considered show quality but they weren't being handled by professionals. All dogs have faults and chances are your dog (general) isn't everyone's cup of tea either. Mine certainly aren't. In fact, when Jagger got a 5 point major the woman who's dog was RWD loudly commented while we were waiting for ribbons that she couldn't believe "that dog" got it over the other quality dogs entered - no doubt meaning her dog and her friend's LOL.

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Originally Posted by kady05 View Post
I mean, I get the concept (more UKC style).. I just don't see it catching on with a lot of the AKC people. Just wonder how much "value" a title from an "Open Show" will hold. Does that make sense?
I don't think the people already dedicated to showing in regular conformation are the target audience. More people who show in UKC, International shows, have FSS/Misc breeds, people just getting started and people interested in getting their dog "proven" in conformation without needing to go through the competitive and expensive route of pursuing a AKC CH.

As for how much value is in an Open show certificate of merit, that is a bit of an odd question. It's not intended to be a CH. To me, I have thought there was a need for a less competitive conformation title for years. Besides how much value is there in a AKC CH if you feel it's always about the handler?

For me conformation titles are what they are. It's extremely subjective and quite competitive. No matter how many quality dogs show up only one dog and one bitch of each breed at any show will get CH points. Generally speaking, most dogs being shown in AKC are well bred dog's who's breeders felt they were good enough to show. You may or may not agree but one can argue that "show quality" simply means the dog has no serious faults or DQs and looks like the breed it is. There's some outstanding AKc/UKC CHs and some which are mediocre at best. Of course, which are which is pretty subjective There are also some outstanding dogs that will never be finished because their owner doesn't want to devote the time and money into pursuing a CH. And there's breeders who feel weird about using a dog who's not shown in their breeding program. To me, this is a good alternative for those people.
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  #12  
Old 07-18-2012, 09:04 PM
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kady05 kady05 is offline
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I look at it more from a financial standpoint.. I'm not going to spend a ton of money & time traveling, etc. on something that isn't considered valuable (and I'm using that term because I can't think of a better one) among other show goers, breeders, etc. At least, not yet anyway.

Like I said, I've done match shows before (Sako actually won one), but only local ones (think 15min. away). I show UKC as well and greatly prefer it over AKC. So I guess if they had some of these open shows near me, I'd go, as long as entry prices weren't ridiculous.
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  #13  
Old 07-19-2012, 03:41 AM
Teal Teal is offline
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Originally Posted by Aleron View Post
It's all about who's on the other end of the leash? I've managed to finish multiple dogs, get a couple GrCHs, placements and even RWB at Nationals, BOB/BOS over specials, win under some of the most well known judges out there and I'm an owner/handler. I've also gotten points/majors on quite a few other breeds, sometimes the first time I've ever taken them in. A friend of mine just got her dog's bronze GrCH, he's been ranked in the Top Ten, has AOMs from the National and Eukanuba. Not only is she an owner handler but this is her first and only show dog, first dog she's ever competed with in anything.

I didn't do as well when I first started. I wasn't good at presenting my dogs and my dogs were not necessarily in the best show condition coat wise (Loki spent the first half of her life looking like a Blackenois). I also never considered researching judges and showing to those my dog had the best shot under or at least not going to judges who consistently like a very different type than my dog (not that I would've known how to determine which those judges were anyway).

Are there politics in conformation shows? Sure there are. There's politics in just about everything. There are some breeds that professional handlers have a huge advantage in. And some judges who definitely make political decisions. But there's also plenty of judges who do put up what they liked, especially at the class level. Just because a judge puts up a dog that you don't care for doesn't mean they did so for political reasons. They may have put up the dog with a gay tail because they felt his virtues were the best in the ring. A few times my dogs have been beaten by dogs who I wouldn't have even considered show quality but they weren't being handled by professionals. All dogs have faults and chances are your dog (general) isn't everyone's cup of tea either. Mine certainly aren't. In fact, when Jagger got a 5 point major the woman who's dog was RWD loudly commented while we were waiting for ribbons that she couldn't believe "that dog" got it over the other quality dogs entered - no doubt meaning her dog and her friend's LOL.


I'm not competitive enough to spite someone else for placing over me. Did I comment on Saturday at the show I was at that *I* wouldn't have put up the dog who took Best in Show in the first show? Absolutely. Did I make those comments because that dog won and mine didn't? Not at all. The dog had obvious faults that I don't like, and had I been judging... it wouldn't have been put up. Heck, my puppy got a 3rd place out of 6 dogs.. I was THRILLED with the results of that show I never expect to win... if I get a ribbon, whatever colour, I'm thrilled.. if not, hopefully there are some pictures of us in the ring anyways LOL

It's because I'm not competitive that I can look back and see the politics at work, and you're right.. some breeds are DEFINITELY more affected than others. Because I have seen situations like you described.. a green handler and dog, who take wins over more experienced handlers/dogs.

But I've also seen a dog shown for over a year, by three different experienced handlers, who never placed better than RWB... but, when handed to one of the top handlers round here, suddenly was taking 5 point majors against the same competition under the same judges. Is it because she really is THAT much better of a handler, or because she's been showing since she was a child and she's incredibly well known? One can only speculate

But at any rate, I don't mind losing fairly to dogs deemed better quality than my own, even if they aren't my taste... I mind losing to politics lol
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  #14  
Old 07-19-2012, 06:56 AM
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kady05 kady05 is offline
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But I've also seen a dog shown for over a year, by three different experienced handlers, who never placed better than RWB... but, when handed to one of the top handlers round here, suddenly was taking 5 point majors against the same competition under the same judges. Is it because she really is THAT much better of a handler, or because she's been showing since she was a child and she's incredibly well known? One can only speculate
This is what I'm talking about, mostly anyway. I have a good friend involved in Dobermans. She showed her male at show after show, never doing much at all with him (maybe a WD here and there, but never enough to finish him). And she's not a bad handler at all. Put a well known handler on him, boom, finishes his CH in one weekend.

There are definitely breeds who are "handler" breeds. I've had "handler judges" get me in the ring and not even TOUCH my dog, or any other dog, and just put up the Special (no, I don't show under them anymore!). Of course there's always an exception to the rule. I was talking with a very well known handler recently and he said some judges are starting to specifically put up handlers from the AOH class because they want them to continue showing. Told me "you gotta play the game to win!"
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