Question 1. Do you use verbal corrections

[smeagle]

Yes, I do, I also pair the NRM with a direct consequence so it's not actually a verbal correction. It's a 'nope, wrong' then game is over. Or a 'nope, wrong' then back in your crate etc. I used to have a dog that barked in stays ALL the time, problem was solved very quickly with a NRM. I let her know exactly what behaviour caused her to lose the opportunity to earn the reward. So far it has proven to be very effective, no downsides in our training that I can see.

[JessLough]

Originally Posted by ihartgonzo

I will use a verbal interruptor in an emergency situation, as a means of management... but I don't consider it TRAINING. My dogs are way too smart & understand me too well for NRM to be necessary. Doing that quickly shuts Gonzo down, and makes Fozzie disengaged and stubborn. Not giving them a marker/reward/praise is enough to let them know they didn't do what I wanted. I feel schizophrenic going "yesss good!" "nooo bad!" "yesss good!" "nooo!" "yesss!"

To me, training is teaching commands and making them as reliable, motivating and solid as possible. I'd much rather give my dog an actual command and tell them what to do, rather than what not to do. Unless it's an emergency and my brain just stops and all I can do is scream. Being that I never raise my voice at my dogs, if I do, they stop dead in their tracks and shrivel up.

Yah... the reason why they ARE necessary is cause she's too **** smart and understands me too well XD

[smeagle]

I don't understand the idea that telling your dog that x behaviour does not gain reward is a bad thing. Many dogs learn differently so what would work for one dog may not for another. I also find this is a flaw in the idea that you always set your dog up to win - sometimes I set my dog up to fail so I can proof the behaviour even more.

[Danefied]

Originally Posted by smeagle

I don't understand the idea that telling your dog that x behaviour does not gain reward is a bad thing.

I don’t know about anyone else, I’m not saying its “bad”, I’m just saying that for us it was unnecessary. My body language coupled with not getting a reward is enough information for my dogs. I don’t need to add an “oops” or even “no” to make it more clear to them. Some dogs need more information.
I feel like that’s kind of the point of the thread, to see the different ways people do things no?

Originally Posted by smeagle

I also find this is a flaw in the idea that you always set your dog up to win - sometimes I set my dog up to fail so I can proof the behaviour even more.

Just my take, but to me upping criteria or adding in distractions is about challenging the dog, not setting him up to fail.
Setting the dog up to fail, to me, means you KNOW the dog is going to get this one wrong and you correct him for the mistake you know he’s going to make. That’s not cool.

Challenging a dog is just that - a challenge. I’m challenging the dog’s understanding of the behavior with the intent of building the dog’s confidence with that behavior. The dogs says “oh yeah, I got this one, I KNOW the answer here!"
And that's the difference - one builds reliability through confidence, the other just builds reliability - and sometimes not even that.

Now, how quickly you up criteria and add in distractions is going to be different for each dog. Boring your dog to tears can be just as detrimental as eroding their confidence. As always its about knowing your dog and reading your dog.

[smeagle]

Originally Posted by Danefied

I don’t know about anyone else, I’m not saying its “bad”, I’m just saying that for us it was unnecessary. My body language coupled with not getting a reward is enough information for my dogs. I don’t need to add an “oops” or even “no” to make it more clear to them. Some dogs need more information.
I feel like that’s kind of the point of the thread, to see the different ways people do things no?

Sure, and I don't see anywhere that I pointed out specifically that you said it was bad?

Setting the dog up to fail, to me, means you KNOW the dog is going to get this one wrong and you correct him for the mistake you know he’s going to make. That’s not cool.

Why? Just playing devil's advocate here. To give you an example when I am proofing stays (incl for recalls) I WANT my do to get to a point where she breaks out of anticipation for the reward. I set her up to get to the point where she will 'fail' and break because she can't contain her excitement any longer. This is an important element of stay training for me because 1) I want to know my dog is giving 110% and 2) I want to put them in a position where they will break so I can teach them what happens when they do. That is a simple NRM in my case but when you have a dog that has so much value for the reward that they break, a NRM can actually increase confidence and make them try even harder next time. It's not a bad thing for the dog to learn x behaviour does not gain reward.

[Danefied]

Originally Posted by smeagle

Sure, and I don't see anywhere that I pointed out specifically that you said it was bad?

Honestly, I didn’t see where anyone said it was bad.

Originally Posted by smeagle

Why? Just playing devil's advocate here. To give you an example when I am proofing stays (incl for recalls) I WANT my do to get to a point where she breaks out of anticipation for the reward. I set her up to get to the point where she will 'fail' and break because she can't contain her excitement any longer. This is an important element of stay training for me because 1) I want to know my dog is giving 110% and 2) I want to put them in a position where they will break so I can teach them what happens when they do. That is a simple NRM in my case but when you have a dog that has so much value for the reward that they break, a NRM can actually increase confidence and make them try even harder next time. It's not a bad thing for the dog to learn x behaviour does not gain reward.

I don’t think we mean the same thing by NRM and setting a dog up to fail.

I don’t need a dog to break for them to know that stay means stay. Because I can say stay...
- even if I throw your favorite toy,
- even if I toss your favorite treat to you,
- even if I’m playing with another dog next to you,
and reward each time they get it right.
IF they break there is a consequence, sure, but if I’m doing it right, and reading the dog’s learning curve right, the dog won’t make a mistake.

[smeagle]

How can you ever be sure a dog won't break a stay? Can you say with 220% certainty that your dogs stays are 100% reliable?

For me it is also about engagement. If my dog hasn't broken a stay in drive then I don't think they want the reward bad enough. It is that moment when the dog can no longer contain themselves. I proof with all of those kinds of distractions you mentioned and more, but I also know I have taken my dog to the point where their desire for the reward over rides their self control and shown them what happens if they break or do the wrong thing when they want something that bad. It also boosts their confidence because they become more determined to have the reward and try harder next time.

Another example - I will get someone to hold my dogs favourite food reward under her nose in an open palm. I'll set her up right next to them. When I first started running this exercise I wanted my dog to break and try and get the food on offer, I wanted to her to fail so I would walk away. The person holding the food would immediately close their fist and my dog would realise there was no food to be had. She'd look around for me and see I was half way across the field, she would start running to me and I would encourage her then play and reward her when she got to me. She "failed" but learnt rewards that look free or cheap or come from elsewhere than me aren't actually available.

[Danefied]

Originally Posted by smeagle

How can you ever be sure a dog won't break a stay? Can you say with 220% certainty that your dogs stays are 100% reliable?

LOL nope But I can also chain my dog to a tree and not know with 220% certainty that freak lightning won’t strike the tree and turn him loose anyway.
Nothing in life is 100% reliable. Nuclear clocks aren’t 100% reliable. I certainly don’t expect a sentient being with a mind of his own to be 100% reliable.

Originally Posted by smeagle

For me it is also about engagement. If my dog hasn't broken a stay in drive then I don't think they want the reward bad enough. It is that moment when the dog can no longer contain themselves. I proof with all of those kinds of distractions you mentioned and more, but I also know I have taken my dog to the point where their desire for the reward over rides their self control and shown them what happens if they break or do the wrong thing when they want something that bad. It also boosts their confidence because they become more determined to have the reward and try harder next time.

I see what you’re saying, but that’s not how I define engagement.

Originally Posted by smeagle

Another example - I will get someone to hold my dogs favourite food reward under her nose in an open palm. I'll set her up right next to them. When I first started running this exercise I wanted my dog to break and try and get the food on offer, I wanted to her to fail so I would walk away. The person holding the food would immediately close their fist and my dog would realise there was no food to be had. She'd look around for me and see I was half way across the field, she would start running to me and I would encourage her then play and reward her when she got to me. She "failed" but learnt rewards that look free or cheap or come from elsewhere than me aren't actually available.

Yes, that’s not setting a dog up to fail, that’s teaching the dog that all good things come through you.

Setting a dog up to fail is putting the dog in a stay and creating a scenario that you know will make him break, then correcting the dog for the mistake you knew he was going to make. What you’re doing above is not correcting the dog for a mistake, you’re showing her where rewards come from. One is learning the other is “gotcha”.

Edit:
Susan Garrett’s blog here is a good explanation IMO:
http://susangarrettdogagility.com/20...tween-friends/

[smeagle]

I don't really see the difference? In both situations you want the dog to break so you can teach them the consequence of that behaviour. Both give the dog a feeling of losing a reward. I want my dog to break a stay so I can say whoops, look what happens now, I also want to know the dog is giving 110%. I am not saying you can't train a reliable stay in other ways, I was just using it as an example of how I don't always set my dog up to win. Sometimes I want them to experience the loss of a reward.