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  #131  
Old 07-06-2012, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
Anyone who warns against the traditional family getting involved in a breed or line bred for stamina, energy, obsessive tendencies, bite inhibition, independence, velcro behaviors, and beyond is just doing it wrong! I'll let my clients know.

I crack myself up. Dear mom and dad, go get that mal you've been wanting, it'll surely be a breeze!

Like I told my class today, my mal is much easier to train than a terrier or a shiba but I give up some of that benefit when it comes to the day in and day out living with him.

Different dogs suit different homes but most people use "average family dog" to refer to a dog, or breed, that is beneficially easier to own as a pet. Great for walks, play, cuddle, etc but lacking in obsessiveness, potential for bites, etc.

Exactly! Great post!
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  #132  
Old 07-06-2012, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Tahla9999 View Post
If someone ask me what breed would be best for them, I would have no breed that is off limits. Why? Because it depends on the person! There are people that would do well with a Malinois, GSD, or a Fila. There are people who would be best with labs, goldens, or a yorkie. Honestly, if a person ask you for an opinion like that, more than likely you know them and their lifestyle so you should be able to tell what breed would be good for them. I can honestly say that I can fit a breed for each one of my friends. There are people who I would tell them NOT to get a dog. It just varies.
Totally agree - a lot of what makes certain breeds 'harder' or 'easier' is the owner's personality. I happen to love herding dogs. They might be considered 'difficult' for the 'average dog owner' - and for someone who is used to gundog breeds (Labs, pointers, spaniels etc.) they would be difficult. OTOH, I would find it difficult to own a Lab or a bully breed, because our personalities clash.

A person who has grown up with terriers might find a spitz type difficult. A person who has grown up with bully breeds might not like herders, etc. ,etc. I think a lot of it is owner and breed personality, and what you're familiar with.

As far as an 'average family home', I'm not sure how to define that. There are so many individual variables to each situation, average is kind of a moving target IMO.
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  #133  
Old 07-06-2012, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
Anyone who warns against the traditional family getting involved in a breed or line bred for stamina, energy, obsessive tendencies, bite inhibition, independence, velcro behaviors, and beyond is just doing it wrong! I'll let my clients know.

I crack myself up. Dear mom and dad, go get that mal you've been wanting, it'll surely be a breeze!

Like I told my class today, my mal is much easier to train than a terrier or a shiba but I give up some of that benefit when it comes to the day in and day out living with him.

Different dogs suit different homes but most people use "average family dog" to refer to a dog, or breed, that is beneficially easier to own as a pet. Great for walks, play, cuddle, etc but lacking in obsessiveness, potential for bites, etc.
Right. I hope to dear God that if a family approach you and ask you to recommend a breed for the family, you don't tell them "go for a lab or golden" but rather "tell me about your family". I assume your directing this post at me and if so I don't see where you got that from my post saying that I would recommend a Mali to everyone.

Quote:
If someone ask me what breed would be best for them, I would have no breed that is off limits. Why? Because it depends on the person! There are people that would do well with a Malinois, GSD, or a Fila. There are people who would be best with labs, goldens, or a yorkie. Honestly, if a person ask you for an opinion like that, more than likely you know them and their lifestyle so you should be able to tell what breed would be good for them. I can honestly say that I can fit a breed for each one of my friends. There are people who I would tell them NOT to get a dog. It just varies.
This is the post your probably misunderstanding me. I said that no breed was off limits because different breeds fit different people. There are people who would fit with a GSD. There are people who would fit with a Papillion. There are people who would fit with a Malinois. You fit a Malinois.

I volunteer at my humane society almost once every week and the dogs I've seen there weren't hard working dogs that were too much for a person. Most of these dogs were lab or golden mixes, mutts, pit bulls, small dogs of various breeds, etc. Good majority of them were laid back! Most of them were what you would call "easy"! I remember the red doberman we got who had little drive what so ever, very laid back, with a good personailty. Or the 6 month old pup who resembled a long leg brittany spaniel who had little play drive who just wanted to snuggle. Honestly, my favorite dogs there were typically the dogs who were active with a good play drive and believe me, they were rare. Sometimes, I use to think these dogs were given away because they offer no challenge to the people!

Quote:
"Happy" is a relative term. I can walk around my block and run into 10 border collies with average owners that are very happy.
This. In my neighborgood there are a people who own a Vizsla, another owns a goldendoodle, another owns two Rodesian Ridgebacks and a Jack Russel, another own a DA cocker spaniel, there are a couple of mixes, another owns two shetland sheepdogs, there is a person with a german shepherd, another owns a VERY DA border collie, another owns a nice Akita mix, another owns a beagle, another has what looks like a blue color border collie, another has a shepherd type dog who once attack mine, another owns a Weimaraner, another have pit bulls, another has a spaniel, another has Pembroke Welsh Corgi, and another has a couple of labradors. Now tell me what is the average dog owner?
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  #134  
Old 07-06-2012, 07:11 PM
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AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
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Nope, my post wasn't directed at you.

I have, repeatedly, told you my loose gathering of the average family and the suitable average dog for such a family. There will always be flukes and always be flawed families that even the easiest dog is not suited for. That said, a generally chill, active for fun but calm for down time, able to alert but not bite first ask later, able to play but not obsessive, attentive but not upyourbutt, etc.

I work with both the dogs and their owners. I don't have the dumped dogs I have the average person asking for the average dog. I can encourage sports but most of them say "I just want the average (normal by some) dog. Sits when I ask, waits, doesn't bite, walks nicely and plays ball." So, I get paid daily to try and encourage this average idea on these dogs, I can say with confidence some breeds are far easier to mold into this "type" than others.

We'll eventually have to agree to disagree, our positions in the dog community are bound to skew our take on this discussion.
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  #135  
Old 07-06-2012, 07:47 PM
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DISCLAIMER: I did not read anything other than the first couple of posts.

Different breeds will exhibit different traits, which will sometimes require completely different training methods and create a completely different living experience. A dog is not a dog is not a dog, not if you want the potential owner to maintain their happiness and sanity. However, that being said, I do have to roll my eyes when certain breeds are made out to be mythical creatures.
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  #136  
Old 07-06-2012, 08:01 PM
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Different breeds will exhibit different traits, which will sometimes require completely different training methods and create a completely different living experience. A dog is not a dog is not a dog, not if you want the potential owner to maintain their happiness and sanity. However, that being said, I do have to roll my eyes when certain breeds are made out to be mythical creatures.
That was much clearer and more concise than my post, but what I meant to say.

Of course all breeds aren't for anyone. "Making it work" doesn't mean it is ideal.
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  #137  
Old 07-07-2012, 08:16 AM
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When I hear this (and I do hear it all the time at the daycare) it usually doesn't mean 'this dogs breed traits can make them difficult for some people to own'. It usually means 'I don't have the time/inclination to train my dog to be a good companion, so I'm just going to blame it on the breed'. Some gems

Chihuahuas/Dachsunds/Bostons can't be housetrained. Ever. They aren't like other dogs
Pugs can not run, even in cool weather. They aren't like other dogs
You can not clip a Dachsunds nails without getting bitten. They have sensitive feet and aren't like other dogs.
A Basset hound can not live in the house due to it's odor. They aren't like other dogs.
A Pit bull has locking jaws/will turn on you/eats babies for fun. They aren't like other dogs.
Sighthounds will break their legs if you let them play with the other dogs. They aren't like other dogs.
English Bulldogs will all but vaporize the minute the sun hits them, even if it's only 55 degrees out. They aren't like other dogs.
You can't live with a coydog, they will climb on the fridge/dance on top of 10ft kennels/snatch birds from midair and start randomly singing with the ambulances at work. Oh, wait.....
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  #138  
Old 07-07-2012, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by OwnedByBCs View Post
Wait, sorry- maybe I misread, but are you saying that you would knowingly suggest a pet home buy an ACD or BC? That is NOT smart. There are SOME BCs that are suitable for pet homes, but the majority of them are NOT. Absolutely not. The type of Border Collie that is great in an average pet home is the ones who really don't think like Border Collies (like, for example, your typical Australian show lines). My dogs are great pets, don't get me wrong. They are sweet, affectionate, and definitely have an off switch, but most people STILL could not handle them.

If a pet home comes to me asking for puppies, I tell them its a pretty slim chance that there will be a suitable puppy for them. My dogs are bred to work, they are not Golden Retrievers.

You have to keep in mind Border Collies (at least, properly bred ones) are bred to work on a farm. Farm-bred dogs rarely leave their property, rarely see other dogs, rarely see other people that they don't know, and rarely have to deal with loud noises or environmental challenges. That is something that we expect them to do now, but they haven't been bred to deal with the urban world. Border Collies most frequently end up in rescue because of the following reasons (by the way, I did BC rescue for 10 years, I know what I'm talking about here): 1. Too energetic/busy/obsessive/neurotic. 2. Bit child/dog/neighbor etc. 3. Barks at everything. 4. Herds other dogs/children etc.

Sorry, but if you ever see a real Border Collie rescue (not just a shelter) in action, you will NEVER recommend that a novice dog owner gets a BC. I hate to play the rescue card because I feel that it is overused, but there really is nothing that makes me more upset or more disappointed than hearing people tell novice pet owners to get Border Collies, then seeing those dogs end up in shelters or rescues. Most Border Collies who go through shelters don't last long, because they become too neurotic in such small spaces that they are un-adoptable.

The only problem here is you are going off of the 'average' home in your area. In my area the average home is a working/active farm or ranch. Where I live there isn't very many neighborhoods. Sure there are some houses kinda close together, and by close together I mean you can see them from some parts of your property. Neighborhood here means 'people who live on the same county road and on quite a few of them you can got pretty far without seeing another house.

Most of my friends when looking for a dog are looking for ones that are going to be with them all day out and about on the property, they will never see other dogs aside from visits to the vets, and because of the liability it's turned into for farmers and ranchers will probably only be around family and close friends who are regular visitors.

So yes most of them DO need/want intelligent dogs that are go go go all day. I think most of my friends are able to provide a perfect home to BC. Of course there are some that can't so I wouldn't advise it. But for the majority of my friends who are living the life that you yourself described as what BC are breed for I don't have any doubt most of them could handle and live happily with a BC.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JessLough View Post
"Happy" is a relative term. I can walk around my block and run into 10 border collies with average owners that are very happy.
Well obviously they aren't really BC. Those aren't happy living with 'norms'.
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  #139  
Old 07-07-2012, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
I work with both the dogs and their owners. I don't have the dumped dogs I have the average person asking for the average dog. I can encourage sports but most of them say "I just want the average (normal by some) dog. Sits when I ask, waits, doesn't bite, walks nicely and plays ball." So, I get paid daily to try and encourage this average idea on these dogs, I can say with confidence some breeds are far easier to mold into this "type" than others.

We'll eventually have to agree to disagree, our positions in the dog community are bound to skew our take on this discussion.
This, so much!!!

I feel like training & spending time in dog sports/with working dogs really makes the difference GLARINGLY obvious. I breathe a sigh of relief when I'm grooming or training a nice, average type of dog... it is amazing, the difference in working with them. But that doesn't mean "beyond average" dogs are a pain, I admire them so much, but they definitely take special care and a lot more effort to work with. Which MOST people are not willing to put fourth. Chazhound is not most people! Most people want to walk their dogs once a week and let them out in the yard a few times a day and have a happy, calm dog from no more than that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahla9999 View Post
I also take offense to the idea that it is only people with so call difficult breeds who put WORK, RESEARCH, and are PASSIONATE about their dogs.
Umm... did I say that I ONLY have respect for people with difficult breeds? Nope not even. I love seeing a healthy, well trained, athletic, happy dog of any breed. But people with an easy going, friendly, average breed generally don't NEED to pure fourth immense amounts of effort and work to raise a balanced dog. Some one who buys a Fila puppy absolutely NEEDS to live & breathe that breed to raise a correct, balanced dog. And don't be offended, I wasn't addressing you with that comment whatsoever.

I feel like people get too offended by the word "average". We're still talking about DOGS. They are great, diverse, amazing companions. There's just an extreme that some breeds take which isn't normal for most breeds. Like there are "eccentric" people.
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  #140  
Old 07-08-2012, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by StillandSilent View Post
When I hear this (and I do hear it all the time at the daycare) it usually doesn't mean 'this dogs breed traits can make them difficult for some people to own'. It usually means 'I don't have the time/inclination to train my dog to be a good companion, so I'm just going to blame it on the breed'. Some gems

Chihuahuas/Dachsunds/Bostons can't be housetrained. Ever. They aren't like other dogs
Pugs can not run, even in cool weather. They aren't like other dogs
You can not clip a Dachsunds nails without getting bitten. They have sensitive feet and aren't like other dogs.
A Basset hound can not live in the house due to it's odor. They aren't like other dogs.
A Pit bull has locking jaws/will turn on you/eats babies for fun. They aren't like other dogs.
Sighthounds will break their legs if you let them play with the other dogs. They aren't like other dogs.
English Bulldogs will all but vaporize the minute the sun hits them, even if it's only 55 degrees out. They aren't like other dogs.
You can't live with a coydog, they will climb on the fridge/dance on top of 10ft kennels/snatch birds from midair and start randomly singing with the ambulances at work. Oh, wait.....
THIS!

This is what I was personally getting at.
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