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  #61  
Old 06-28-2012, 01:18 AM
j0equ1nn j0equ1nn is offline
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Thanks everyone for so many replies. I didn't mean to be so offensive last time, but on the other hand I want to be free to say what I'm thinking when I go on here, and I'd be lying if I said there weren't times when I question how much the forum has helped. At the moment I'm feeling like there are a lot of people out there who want to help me so it couldn't hurt to listen to them.

One thing I want to point out though is that up until the point where my dog snapped at me, I did very little but follow the advice I got on this forum. I was feeding him in small portions in a bowl, with my hand on him, in silence, and waiting for him to look at me each time before giving him more food. When I left for my trip I instructed my friend to just put his food down and leave him alone. He did this except also enforced a stay command. When I got back from my trip, the dog was sick and on a special diet. I waited until about a week after he'd returned to his usual diet before reinstating the training, and did the same thing as before. One problem is that sometimes as I was rushing out and running late, I did not have time for his feeding routing, and so I would just put down a bowl and make him stay for it, then leave. This is an example of one thing that might be an issue. Sometimes I need to do things like that. I work full time and go to school full time and most days if I sleep for longer than 6 hours I have to skip the shower. I'm not trying to be off-putting if I say I don't have time to read any books. But my fiancee would probably want to read it, so I'll mention it to her.

So maybe the following was my error, but it is certainly not obvious that it would be such a bad move. Sometimes when I put the bowl down for him, I would be passing by and he would growl at me. Usually not, but if he did I would take the bowl and make him sit and stay again, then give it back. Usually it was successful and even ended the growling. But a couple of times he snapped at me. That's when I did the muzzle-holding business. I learned the muzzle-holding method from Guiding Eyes for the Blind, by the way, back around 1996. I know that there have been a lot of changes in dog training philosophy since then, but doing this is not such a barbaric alpha-male activity. It's not called for to tell me I'm doing it for my own sick pleasure of overpowering my dog. Maybe Freud would think that was in there somewhere if we wanted to turn this into a psychoanalysis session, but my point is it's something I learned from a dog trainer. I'm sure it must have worked in some situations to have been used for long enough for Guiding Eyes for the Blind to adopt it as a regular technique.

Anyway, I'm open to suggestions. But keep in mind that almost everyone on here is a dog-expert and the way you talk sometimes you're alienating your audience. I don't know. That's why I'm here. If I thought I knew everything about this crap I wouldn't be on here.

What I have done since the couple of biting episodes is I've made all meal times exclusively hand-feedings. I feed him big hand fulls so he doesn't have to feel restricted about his pace of eating, and I wait for him to look at me after each one before giving another. He has no problem looking right away since my fiancee taught him the look command (I don't have to say it either). I've been late for work a few times because I think it's important we do this consistently. He's made significant improvements in not being nervous and eventually even being excited about mealtimes.

My fiancee has been reading books about dog training. One of them says that a food-aggressive dog should be exclusively hand fed, and that it's important the dog learn that all its resources come strictly from the owner.

So I'll read any recommendations. However my ongoing criticism may be the main source of the whole problem here: there is never any advice about what to do DURING a time when a dog is attacking you, whether it's a mild attack or serious attack. The only response so far is to suggest that my dog bit me because I had touched the same sensitive area that made him bite the vet. Look. I was there. I wasn't touching the fella at all. My growing suspicion is that many people who handle a lot of dogs are in the habit of putting a dog down quickly after something like this happens, and that this is the reason for the silence. I am not of the opinion that my dog needs to be put down, at least the way he his now - he definitely has a chance at improving, and is sociable in every other way. So accepting that this is not my solution at the moment, what would you recommend. I know, obviously, we try to avoid having a bite ever happen. But let's say you're doing your usual routine, and suddenly for some reason the dog gets too nervous and bites you. What do you do? Provided you're capable of not freaking out and panicking, what do you do?
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  #62  
Old 06-28-2012, 04:38 AM
Teal Teal is offline
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I don't believe, from what you have described, that you have the time needed to dedicate the proper training to ensure this dog overcomes his issues. You CANNOT be inconsistent with a food aggressive dog - EVER. And if you're rushing about in the morning and don't have time to follow proper protocol for feeding him - you are not going to make any long lasting changes in this dog's behaviour. If you can't be dedicated to training, why should he be dedicating to showing the results you want?

As for what to do when the dog is attacking you - Get the dog restrained and off you. I don't quite know what else you want here, because it shouldn't be acceptable that the dog is being put into a situation where he feels that attacking you is the proper answer. You're skipping straight to what to do during the problem, instead of trying to solve the problem so it doesn't occur.. and I just don't understand that. You're pretty much just saying, "I don't have the time to train the dog properly, so what do I do when he bites me because it's going to continue to happen." and I can't wrap my head around that way of thinking and give you an answer.

Maybe it's because it's nearly 3 a.m. and I've been in photographer mode for the last 10 hours instead of dog trainer mode... but I'm at a loss for what good you think is going to come of this entire situation :-/
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  #63  
Old 06-28-2012, 07:34 AM
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Emily Emily is offline
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The reason nobody tells you what you to do when the dog is "attacking" you, and the reason nobody tells you how to "correct" him for that, is that we've been telling you, until we're blue in the... fingers?... that you shouldn't be pushing him that far in the first place! You should be working to raise his comfort level while slowly while avoiding provoking a reaction.

So next to you make him snap, grab your own muzzle and hold yourself down until you learn better, then go back a step, and work more on counterconditioning. If a reaction happens, by all means, defend yourself, but don't see it as an opportunity to correct him. Just brush it off, go back a step, and keeping working on it. Don't take his food away when he growls. Do you know what that teaches him? "Wow, I was really afraid they would take my food, and when I told them that, they DID take my food." That's he stopped growling and started snapping. He had to escalate his defense because you punished him for warning you.

Please, I just don't know how many different ways to say this, but stop thinking about this as something you need to discipline out of him! He's not challenging you, he's scared! So hand feed him, yes, and teach that hands near his bowl/food = MORE good food, not a reprimand or a threat, and he will get over this. Stop trying to punish him for this, please.
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  #64  
Old 06-28-2012, 08:30 AM
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Danefied Danefied is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily View Post
The reason nobody tells you what you to do when the dog is "attacking" you, and the reason nobody tells you how to "correct" him for that, is that we've been telling you, until we're blue in the... fingers?... that you shouldn't be pushing him that far in the first place! You should be working to raise his comfort level while slowly while avoiding provoking a reaction.

So next to you make him snap, grab your own muzzle and hold yourself down until you learn better, then go back a step, and work more on counterconditioning. If a reaction happens, by all means, defend yourself, but don't see it as an opportunity to correct him. Just brush it off, go back a step, and keeping working on it. Don't take his food away when he growls. Do you know what that teaches him? "Wow, I was really afraid they would take my food, and when I told them that, they DID take my food." That's he stopped growling and started snapping. He had to escalate his defense because you punished him for warning you.

Please, I just don't know how many different ways to say this, but stop thinking about this as something you need to discipline out of him! He's not challenging you, he's scared! So hand feed him, yes, and teach that hands near his bowl/food = MORE good food, not a reprimand or a threat, and he will get over this. Stop trying to punish him for this, please.
Again, yes, yes, yes, to all of the above.




Quote:
Originally Posted by j0equ1nn View Post
My growing suspicion is that many people who handle a lot of dogs are in the habit of putting a dog down quickly after something like this happens, and that this is the reason for the silence.
Oh... right... you caught us. We’re just a bunch of wussies who euthanize everything that lifts a lip. Everyone that has posted here has no clue how to handle a dog as badass as yours, right...

You want to know what to do when the dog bites you? You yell in surprise and pain, you remove your body part from the dog, you assess said body part and account for all pieces of it and perform first aid as needed.
Then you take a newspaper, roll it up nice and tight, and hit yourself upside the head several times for missing the warnings and putting yourself in that position to begin with.

What are you going to do? Yell at the dog? Tell him “no, no, bad dog, no biting!” Dog’s going to look at you like you’re a nut. He already bit you! He already KNOWS he can bite you and that his reflexes are faster than yours - you made sure he figured that out by pushing him to the point of biting. Congratulations.
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  #65  
Old 06-28-2012, 08:51 AM
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Emily Emily is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j0equ1nn View Post
My growing suspicion is that many people who handle a lot of dogs are in the habit of putting a dog down quickly after something like this happens, and that this is the reason for the silence.
You caught us.

My god. This is just ridiculous. I have to leave this thread for my own mental health.

You're right. Nobody can handle a dog like yours. Good luck!
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  #66  
Old 06-28-2012, 08:56 AM
stardogs stardogs is offline
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I've not been in this thread because I don't like to give advice on serious behavior issues over the internet, but I just had to say: you do realize that the forum is not here solely to help people with training issues, right? It's a community where members help each other on all sorts of topics and there's supposed to be be both give and take, not just take.

If you want professional advice tailored to your specific situation, locate a trainer or behaviorist and HIRE them to come out and help. I have clients who do just that and it works much better than internet advice because I can *see* the situation first hand.

The internet is the internet - it can't know all the ins and outs of your individual situation, especially one that's as complex and serious as resource guarding with multiple bites!
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  #67  
Old 06-28-2012, 09:35 AM
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Gah, sounds like a minefield...my three cents, please nobody flame me...I'm old...
IMHO I would treat biting the way I did with human children. If you haven't had kids yet, some human toddlers bite too...hard...drawing blood hard...

And you stop what you're doing with them and say " NO Bite No" and try to redirect them, they might laugh at you and test you doing it again. Stop what you're doing and a quick firm " NO Bite". I can remember Sophie trying to nip my hand once when she was really wound up and I looked down at her and said something like " NO, don't even THINK about it". I have a whispery speaking voice. But something in the tone, she dropped down head on paws.

Bullies as a breed want to please people more than just about anything. You can work with that, it takes patience n' persistence...and perhaps some private sessions with a professional. Meanwhile keep them bandaids and neosporin handy...
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  #68  
Old 06-28-2012, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaydee View Post
Gah, sounds like a minefield...my three cents, please nobody flame me...I'm old...
IMHO I would treat biting the way I did with human children. If you haven't had kids yet, some human toddlers bite too...hard...drawing blood hard...

And you stop what you're doing with them and say " NO Bite No" and try to redirect them, they might laugh at you and test you doing it again. Stop what you're doing and a quick firm " NO Bite". I can remember Sophie trying to nip my hand once when she was really wound up and I looked down at her and said something like " NO, don't even THINK about it". I have a whispery speaking voice. But something in the tone, she dropped down head on paws.

Bullies as a breed want to please people more than just about anything. You can work with that, it takes patience n' persistence...and perhaps some private sessions with a professional. Meanwhile keep them bandaids and neosporin handy...

This sounds like a good idea for a dog that maybe doesn't understand bite inhibition.

But this is a dog he is constantly provoking. Setting a dog up to fail like this can't be fixed by simple redirection.
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  #69  
Old 06-28-2012, 10:06 AM
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Danefied Danefied is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaydee View Post
Gah, sounds like a minefield...my three cents, please nobody flame me...I'm old...
IMHO I would treat biting the way I did with human children. If you haven't had kids yet, some human toddlers bite too...hard...drawing blood hard...

And you stop what you're doing with them and say " NO Bite No" and try to redirect them, they might laugh at you and test you doing it again. Stop what you're doing and a quick firm " NO Bite". I can remember Sophie trying to nip my hand once when she was really wound up and I looked down at her and said something like " NO, don't even THINK about it". I have a whispery speaking voice. But something in the tone, she dropped down head on paws.

Bullies as a breed want to please people more than just about anything. You can work with that, it takes patience n' persistence...and perhaps some private sessions with a professional. Meanwhile keep them bandaids and neosporin handy...
This isn’t a bandaids and neosporin situation unfortunately.
Its an ER and stitches.

And a full grown dog with dog reflexes and canines is no toddler.
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by developing our powers of empathy and observation,
and by searching for better ways to teach and educate the dogs we love."
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  #70  
Old 06-28-2012, 11:07 AM
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Emily Emily is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaydee View Post
Gah, sounds like a minefield...my three cents, please nobody flame me...I'm old...
IMHO I would treat biting the way I did with human children. If you haven't had kids yet, some human toddlers bite too...hard...drawing blood hard...

And you stop what you're doing with them and say " NO Bite No" and try to redirect them, they might laugh at you and test you doing it again. Stop what you're doing and a quick firm " NO Bite". I can remember Sophie trying to nip my hand once when she was really wound up and I looked down at her and said something like " NO, don't even THINK about it". I have a whispery speaking voice. But something in the tone, she dropped down head on paws.

Bullies as a breed want to please people more than just about anything. You can work with that, it takes patience n' persistence...and perhaps some private sessions with a professional. Meanwhile keep them bandaids and neosporin handy...
This isn't puppy biting. And it's not a dog being "naughty" and it's not a dog that's "testing" anybody or anything. It's a dog that's afraid of having its food stolen that has been repeatedly provoked. Telling it "no bite" after you've provoked isn't doing anything to remedy the cause of the bite.

ETA: I'm not trying to flame you, I know you mean well, but that advice isn't really relevant to this situation.
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