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  #41  
Old 06-10-2012, 10:04 PM
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houlahoops houlahoops is offline
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With regards to the original post:

The curs sometimes will do this before we give them an off-switch, and I wonder if it's the same behavior?

Bailey, for example, used to get riled up for whatever reason and then would start doing "zoomies," which in our other dogs is harmless. But for him, it seemed to be a complete loss of control, and he would sometimes escalate to jumping and even biting (he had very low bite-inhibition when we acquired him, unfortunately). He drew blood several times and it was frightening and stressful for the handler: especially since he wasn't being outright aggressive. He was just so wound up that he could not focus on us.

First off, what kind of lead do you have your pup on? A good quick fix for us was a head-harness (Gentle Leader), which gave us enough initial control to work on the behavioral aspect of the problem.

We also started working on the command "settle." You may see that there are precursors before your dog starts to lose her head. When you see these (with Bailey it was a rigid stance, quick movements, soft open mouth, and small vocalizations), put her in a sit and have her watch you. Tell her "settle" and as soon as you see a calming signal (licking lips/yawning/relaxing), praise her and continue walking. Try this in the house, too: get her really riled playing a game and then calm her down and reward her. For our dogs and the dogs we hunt with, it functions as an effective off-switch for dogs that otherwise easily lose control of themselves (a self-rewarding behavior).

Also, as soon as you get teeth on skin make sure that you react (however you want to do it...we just use a verbal "AH" and then give a command like sit or settle). That will likely teach her a little more bite inhibition which will make her zoomies less difficult to manage.

That said, increased exercise also works wonders in helping the dogs to control their behavior, so I would recommend that as well!

Good luck!
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  #42  
Old 06-10-2012, 10:27 PM
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PWCorgi PWCorgi is offline
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I will second/third/whatevers the idea of playing some impulse control games!! The "go crazy/freeze" one I could see being especially helpful in this situation.

Frodo's reactivity did improve some after playing a lot of "it yer choice" even though I wasn't using it intentionally for his reactivity!

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Originally Posted by Greenmagick View Post
I think you have a LOT of learning to do if you want to be a trainer yet think its ok to hit your dogs when you feel the need.
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Originally Posted by Greenmagick View Post
And again, it's not about IF it works. It's about WHY it works and the possible repersussions of the action. I have never met an aversive or punishment based trainer who would be ok with you hitting your dog.

And sorry OP as this has gotten derailed. There is a lot of great advice in the thread though.
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For a while I was trying to determine whether I thought she was trolling. Unfortunately I don't think so.
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  #43  
Old 06-10-2012, 10:31 PM
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You thought I was trolling because I pop by dog and you don't? WOW.
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  #44  
Old 06-10-2012, 10:35 PM
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Moreso because you have caused a lot of drama since starting here, at least recently.

The fact that you "pop" your dog doesn't make you a troll, it just makes you completely oblivious to how dog training works. I don't know ANY trainer, not ONE (even some pretty harsh correction based ones) that would advocate hitting a dog.

Welcome to my ignore list.
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  #45  
Old 06-10-2012, 10:40 PM
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You ignore me because you disagree with me on popping a dog? Good riddance, then.
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  #46  
Old 06-10-2012, 11:55 PM
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I've got her on a regular collar at the moment - a head collar we've tried on her once and it didn't seem as secure as a regular collar and she kept pawing her face to get it off....we'll probably re-visit it soon - and get her used to it slowly; let her have dinner in it, give her treats while she's got it on etc.

Ditto on her inhibition - she's much better in a "normal" situation at home etc - quite good actually. But when she gets in those fits - she forgets all about the concept of inhibition.

I'll work on the impulse control as well definitely - and your suggestion of the games is great. Thank you so much! You have catahoulas? I've only met two but I think they're such cool dogs.



Quote:
Originally Posted by houlahoops View Post
With regards to the original post:

The curs sometimes will do this before we give them an off-switch, and I wonder if it's the same behavior?

Bailey, for example, used to get riled up for whatever reason and then would start doing "zoomies," which in our other dogs is harmless. But for him, it seemed to be a complete loss of control, and he would sometimes escalate to jumping and even biting (he had very low bite-inhibition when we acquired him, unfortunately). He drew blood several times and it was frightening and stressful for the handler: especially since he wasn't being outright aggressive. He was just so wound up that he could not focus on us.

First off, what kind of lead do you have your pup on? A good quick fix for us was a head-harness (Gentle Leader), which gave us enough initial control to work on the behavioral aspect of the problem.

We also started working on the command "settle." You may see that there are precursors before your dog starts to lose her head. When you see these (with Bailey it was a rigid stance, quick movements, soft open mouth, and small vocalizations), put her in a sit and have her watch you. Tell her "settle" and as soon as you see a calming signal (licking lips/yawning/relaxing), praise her and continue walking. Try this in the house, too: get her really riled playing a game and then calm her down and reward her. For our dogs and the dogs we hunt with, it functions as an effective off-switch for dogs that otherwise easily lose control of themselves (a self-rewarding behavior).

Also, as soon as you get teeth on skin make sure that you react (however you want to do it...we just use a verbal "AH" and then give a command like sit or settle). That will likely teach her a little more bite inhibition which will make her zoomies less difficult to manage.

That said, increased exercise also works wonders in helping the dogs to control their behavior, so I would recommend that as well!

Good luck!
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  #47  
Old 06-11-2012, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StephyMei1112 View Post
I've got her on a regular collar at the moment - a head collar we've tried on her once and it didn't seem as secure as a regular collar and she kept pawing her face to get it off....we'll probably re-visit it soon - and get her used to it slowly; let her have dinner in it, give her treats while she's got it on etc.

Ditto on her inhibition - she's much better in a "normal" situation at home etc - quite good actually. But when she gets in those fits - she forgets all about the concept of inhibition.

I'll work on the impulse control as well definitely - and your suggestion of the games is great. Thank you so much! You have catahoulas? I've only met two but I think they're such cool dogs.
Definitely clip the leash to the collar as well as a head collar! More secure, and more control the leash should be able to clip on both d-rings
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  #48  
Old 06-11-2012, 02:49 AM
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Tonight the jogging thing worked! a quarter way of the walk thru she got that look on her face and started lunging - I first tried getting her to sit - she did but spazed out right after and mouthed me on the butt (I wish it was a guy doing that instead of my dog :P ROFL) - right after that I made her leash very short, put her at my right side and proceeded to jog - she kept trying to jump around and nip so I just went all out and ran like hell. We went uphill at a great pace and around a corner till it was actually HER that stopped - and when she did stop - she actually just settled down and sniffed around! no recurrence!

So far so good - I'll be consistent with this and practice focus/impulse control with her as well.
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That's all that's goin' on with us'n!
We are such neighborly people, peaceful and sweet!
All except when we happen to meet.


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http://inugami1112.wordpress.com/

"And it's all been lost before, so there's nothing to lose..."


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  #49  
Old 06-11-2012, 06:54 AM
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Glad you found this is working.
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  #50  
Old 06-11-2012, 07:14 AM
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Danefied Danefied is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StephyMei1112 View Post
Tonight the jogging thing worked! a quarter way of the walk thru she got that look on her face and started lunging - I first tried getting her to sit - she did but spazed out right after and mouthed me on the butt (I wish it was a guy doing that instead of my dog :P ROFL) - right after that I made her leash very short, put her at my right side and proceeded to jog - she kept trying to jump around and nip so I just went all out and ran like hell. We went uphill at a great pace and around a corner till it was actually HER that stopped - and when she did stop - she actually just settled down and sniffed around! no recurrence!

So far so good - I'll be consistent with this and practice focus/impulse control with her as well.
Yay! Great to hear you’ve seen improvement in your last two walks. A puppy owner’s mantra should be “this too shall pass, this too shall pass, this too shall pass.” LOL! Keep it up, and definitely look in to some impulse control - remember the goal with impulse control exercises is that it has to be 100% the dog’s choice. Otherwise she won’t learn SELF control, she’ll simply learn that you can control her - not the same lesson.

Which leads me to hitting dogs...
I really wasn’t going to get in to this, but it doesn’t seem to be sinking in, so I figured what the hey, give it a shot.

The act of smacking a dog (or a human child) in and of itself is not that big of a deal. I have two dogs who are very rough and tumble and the rougher I am, the happier they are. Heck, just yesterday I was trying to read a magazine that kept having a dog head appear in the middle of the pages. Finally I looked at the dog and said “you want me to play with you?” and proceeded to smack him around with the magazine which he thought was awesome. I’ll chase my kids up the stairs “spanking” them and they think its great. DH left a bruise on DD throwing her around in the pool - fun times.

Its not that dogs or kids are made of glass and they’ll break over a “pop” on the butt or nose. Its that as a way of teaching anything useful, popping, smacking, swatting etc., is really very INeffective. IOW, while it may appear to work, its not teaching what you think its teaching.

Lets take the bed example. You want to teach the dog to get off the bed. Fair enough. All dogs should have a “get off the furniture” cue.
So you start by popping the dog on the nose. Which you say gets the dog to “listen” to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbara! View Post
He only pays attention to me when I pop him.
Yes, popping a dog on the nose will likely get his attention. Once or twice. But how effective is that long term? For one, dogs (and humans) desensitize to physical aversives fairly quickly. Second of all, do you really want to have a relationship with your dog where he pays attention to you only so he can duck when you go to pop him?

Why not simply teach an attention cue? Teach a cue that means “hey, I’m talking to you, get ready to listen to what I’m about to say.” For most of us that’s the dog’s name. Ever know someone who has to spell the dog’s name (or w.a.l.k. or d.i.n.n.e.r.?) In our house all dogs have a code name for when we want to talk about them, not to them. Why? Because if you say the dog’s name, and they are anywhere within hearing distance, you will have said dog in your face boring holes in to your soul with his eyes. (Okay, maybe not that extreme, but sometimes that’s what it feels like!)

How’d we teach name = attention? Simple. From day one pair the name with good things. Name then feed. Name then new toy. Name then pets. Out on walks? Name then point out a squirrel, or a smell the other dogs have gotten in to - oh yeah, environmental rewards are the best! And when I have to do something like nail trims or bath, I do NOT use the dog’s name. I simply go up to that dog, and lead them to their doom, uh, nail trimming.

What’s so great about pairing the dog’s name with good things, is that dogs don’t desensitize to rewards the same way they desensitize to aversive stimulus. That’s how they’re built. Most dogs are built to overcome painful or annoying stimulus in order to achieve a reward. Rewards hold more power to motivate than punishers. If you know how to reward effectively.

The other thing that’s pretty ineffective about the nose popping is that it doesn’t give the dog much information. You want the dog to do two things yes? 1. listen up, 2. get off the bed. Okay. So the nose popping doesn’t cue any of that. All it really does is get the dog to stop the forward motion on to the bed (that is until the dog desensitizes and then it will do nothing at all). Other than stopping the dog from pushing his way on to the bed, the nose pop gives the dog ZERO information about what you DO want him to do.

There are 101 things he can do instead of climbing on your bed, including biting the hand that hit him, cocking his leg on the bed and marking it, running out of the room with your bra, etc.
However, if you teach him “off” there is only ONE correct response to that cue. Way less guesswork for the dog huh?
Take a treat, or simply take him by the collar, and lead him off the bed (or sofa) while saying “off”. Rinse and repeat. Ta da! Now you have a cue that the dog understands to mean one thing (get off).

I know this is long, but hopefully its helpful too.
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