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  #31  
Old 05-16-2012, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Dizzy View Post
I really am willing to bet my own face, head, and other important parts of me on there not only being a cause, but a solution.

I work with these scenarios day in, day out.

The only problem is, that if you don't intervene early enough its nigh on impossible to change. But not totally impossible.

I have worked alongside a clinical psychologist with 30 yrs experience of adults and children, who often display these kind of traits. On cases where kids are on the brink of being dangerous.

She practically knew the kids history without even seeing the files just because of the behaviour displayed. There's a pattern.

If you don't think there's a pattern, its just because you haven't seen it. Yes, genes may play a part in the resulting person, but I do not believe in soley nature OR nurture.
Oh yeah...t hey should have had her in therapy WAY WAY early but they were totally blind to what she was doing. they were SO hard on the brother and she manipulated that to make it even worse on him and they were so easy on her. She got away with everything. She was just very good at manipulation from an early age.

Now she's 18 and they can't MAKE her do anything and she sees nothing wrong with her behaviour and doesn't WANT to change so there is the new problem. If they had gotten her therapy early on she would be better off but now as a legal adult she doesn't see anything wrong with what she does.

Growing up the brother had ADHD... REAL ADHD not the kind schools want to push on every kid that comes through the door. He was... a handful. At the beginning my mom had those kids almost every weekend and then eventually they all just moved in. Mom and dad couldn't agree on how to raise the kids, neice learned from early on that she could manipulate that to her advantage. She learned from an early age that if she didn't get what she wanted she could call the police and make claims and make peoples lives a living hell.

it was awful. At 18 she still does this only know the police know her and what she does and that she is supposed to be on medication.

her parents have given her an ultimatum now. she has a week to get back to the doctor and get her meds that she is supposed to be taking or she is OUT and baby is NOT going with her. Childrens Aid is backing them on this one. she is not ALLOWED to be alone with her child because she is a danger to him

If she would take her meds she could possibly lead a normal life but she refuses and unfortunately her parents let it go too long and now they get no say in getting her treatment. but I absolutely believe there are cases where you can nurture a child to the nines and they can still have these tendencies.
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  #32  
Old 05-16-2012, 07:53 AM
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I don't know if children can be a true psychopath. I do know that some people are born angry and stay that way. I grew up in a household ruled by an excessively angry child. It was hell until she moved out.
This is a pretty accurate description of my brothers household with my niece living in it as well. She was born angry and she stays that way. Meds and therapy could help, could have helped more at a young age for her but when people are good a manipulation it makes it hard to see them for what they are... especially when they are your own children.
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  #33  
Old 05-16-2012, 09:43 AM
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I saw a really scary kid in the ER the other day. He fits this description very well, and is the most earnest, plausible liar I have ever met. He has had recorded incidnets since age three.

This is a kid from two drug addicted parents who have been in and out of jail his whole life, and who was raised by an aunt. He has reasons to be the way he is, for sure, but most kids in those circumstances do not wind up this way. Thus the theory that it takes nature and nurture both to get to this point.

The big argument with this kid was that the family wanted him hospitalized, and he had no acute problem that could possible be helped by hospitalization. A big argument ensued, and we had to call child services to help work it out. Since all remaining relatives are afraid to have him at home, he has been temporarily sent home with the least resistant one pending placement in some sort of group home. It's very sad and disturbing.

And, incidentally, I hate child psychiatry. I could never do it. I don't understand how people can deal with all of this misery day in and day out for years. I think after three weeks, I might need counseling myself. Horrible, horrible stories, and bad tools to try to help them with.
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  #34  
Old 05-16-2012, 10:44 AM
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Yes. I absolutely believe a child can be a psychopath by nature. Like anything else, we are subject to being hardwired wrong from the very beginning, and I have to think that we see more of it than previously because of the exotic melange of pharmacopeia (both street and legal) and even the chemicals we're bombarded with everyday.
My feelings exactly!
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Old 05-16-2012, 11:56 AM
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Ugh, I was re-reading about that case recently and I'd forgotten how horrifying it was. Perhaps it struck me as more horrid due to my kiddo being close to that age. Blah
Horrid. And very complex. The media made the public into an angry mob with little regard for facts, and demonized the youth of Britain. I'm not condoning the children, I live in Liverpool so know how it hit the community, but the aftermath has been horrendous in terms of the way people view teenagers, and that has resulted in many social problems.
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  #36  
Old 05-16-2012, 12:33 PM
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I was talking to a psychiatrist friend about this, and she has seen kids that act like this -- they truly act evil. Not impulsive and angry, but calculating and manipulative, and just plain scary. And they didn't have a huge childhood trauma or abusive parents, etc.

Hell, read the article I posted. There's no indication that the parents of the nine year old are abusive. Their other two boys are fine. In fact, their younger kids are the ones I feel the most sorry for. IMO, they need to get that older child out of the house before he further damages his younger siblings.

Anyway, apparently there is a good amount of research being done on this in an effort to better understand sociopathy and hopefully develop better treatments, at least for kids. For a long time, there was nothing.

It's so deeply disturbing and sad.
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  #37  
Old 05-16-2012, 03:25 PM
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Before I had kids I believe a lot in nurture. Now, having two kids, I believe much more in nature. Nurture matters, of course, often in curbing nature... But nature is there first and foremost.

Both my kids are difficult, in their own unique ways. I'm constantly fighting to nurture their difficult natures into good citizenry. My son has been diagnosed with Asperger/Autism, ODD, ADHD, and anxiety. Further testing places him a bit differently, still Aspergers (though incredibly mild on the spectrum), but only ADD, and not ODD. Anxiety is still there. In earlier times he'd not have been diagnosed, and I expect he'd be treated far differently by the schools... If I had parented him differently I suspect I would have had a child suicide on my hands by age 8. It is a constant fight, but I adore him. He's the sweetest, most loving boy ever. But I cringe at what might have been without careful nurture.

My daughter is totally different. My son may not be ODD or ADHD, but my daughter fits the bill far more... She is manipulative, deliberately oppositional and defiant (even as a baby - before nurture could have had any real play in things), goes out of her way to annoy or irritate, lies, and generally is incredibly difficult. She also has a very short attention span, not being able to sit through stories or movies that her peers have no difficulty with. Now, as she's growing older she is greatly improving (thank goodness, I was really starting to despair). But still a real challenge to parent. Thankfully I don't think she has the self-harming potential her brother has/had. But I could easily see her becoming the popular girl in class who tortures the less popular kids in her spare time... I work constantly to help her become more aware of different kinds of people, of how you should treat others, the need for good manners, of why truthfulness is better, etc.

If my kids were raised in a home that didn't believe in really intervening... well I'd really be concerned for their long-term potentials. I'm far from a perfect parent, and am sure I cause as many problems as I solve. But I think my parenting makes a real difference.

So if nature is bad to start with, and nurture doesn't correct it (such as sparks19's neice), I think that some people just have no chance. A perfectly decent parent for the average child could miss the signs of troubles in a child with a bad nature. And even with nurture, I think some kids' problems might be too much to guide to a healthy living.
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  #38  
Old 05-16-2012, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Freehold View Post
If my kids were raised in a home that didn't believe in really intervening... well I'd really be concerned for their long-term potentials. I'm far from a perfect parent, and am sure I cause as many problems as I solve. But I think my parenting makes a real difference.

So if nature is bad to start with, and nurture doesn't correct it (such as sparks19's neice), I think that some people just have no chance. A perfectly decent parent for the average child could miss the signs of troubles in a child with a bad nature. And even with nurture, I think some kids' problems might be too much to guide to a healthy living.
I think this is a good way to put it.

I don't think nurture always CREATES these issues but I think it can do a lot to HELP these issues (or make them worse) but I think the issues can already BE there with or without the nurture aspect. I think it is absolutely possible for it to be nature for them to be such a way and nurture can help or hurt from that point.

My brother and his wife aren't nessecarily BAD parents but they were ill equipped to deal with the hand they were dealt with their kids. The first one was so difficult that the second one kind of flew under the radar... she was much less difficult on the surface but created a lot of problems that went unnoticed because they weren't as "in your face" as the first childs ADHD issues.

Just like with Hannah. she is a great kid. easy going, laid back, pleasant, etc. I'd like to tell everyone that it's because I'm super mom lol but I know better. it's just her NATURE to be this way. I didn't make her this way (well I guess I kinda did since I actually MADE her LOL). her personality isn't a result of my stellar parenting or anything lol. She was born with this personality. How I parent her can certainly help or hurt (and there is definitely a little of both going on lol) but nature is the main component.

people always say that children are naturally good. No... not really lol. You don't have to TEACH a child to do bad things like lying and such other things. They know how to do it all on their own. It's up to us to teach them that it's WRONG to do those things but we don't have to teach them how to do wrong, it's already in human nature to know how.
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  #39  
Old 05-16-2012, 06:15 PM
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One of my cousins has a kid that I swear has something going on with him. I don't know if he's a psycopath but he has seemingly no conscience. He is always in trouble for fighting with other kids and he is horrible to animals, just trying to cause pain for the sake of causing pain. He is very cold and detached, not just normal sullen kid, he's just blank. He did almost die when he was born and the umbilical cord wrapped around his neck and cut off his oxygen. He was brought back but I do wonder if the lack of oxygen to his brain had some sort of affect on his inability to empathize.
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Old 05-16-2012, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by sparks19 View Post
people always say that children are naturally good. No... not really lol. You don't have to TEACH a child to do bad things like lying and such other things. They know how to do it all on their own. It's up to us to teach them that it's WRONG to do those things but we don't have to teach them how to do wrong, it's already in human nature to know how.
I definitely think some children are naturally good. lol. When I worked as an early intervention specialist I was always humbled by the incredible kindness demonstrated by children in the worst situations imaginable. One little child, their face had been mutilated by someone in their family, mom was a violent drug addict who murdered their little sister. That kid was the most incredibly sweet, kind, gentle, compassionate and loving child I have ever worked with. I've seen more than one child whose home life did nothing to teach them those character traits, yet they had them in spades.
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