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  #11  
Old 05-14-2012, 10:58 AM
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Danefied Danefied is offline
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Originally Posted by elegy View Post
Personally I like APDT better because the courses are longer and more interesting. I do think AKC is easier. In APDT you *cannot* double command or you'll lose 3 points. In AKC rally you do not lose points for repeated commands.

I think the hard part about rally is knowing all the ins and outs and little rules. Like you have to pause after the walk around exercises in AKC. Those little things that can make a big difference. A class with a good instructor will help a lot with that.
With the new rules, yes, you can absolutely lose points for repeated commands. Depends on the judge and how tough they are, but the rules do state you can take points off for slow commands and repeated commands. What you do not get dinged for in rally (that you do get dinged for in regular obedience) is encouraging the dog.
For example. If I'm going through the spirals encouraging my dog with my voice (no fake luring, snapping or clapping) I'm fine. But if I halt and get a slow sit or have to ask for it more than once, you bet some judges will take anywhere from 1 to 10 points off. Just depends on the judge and how they interpret the rules - see below.
I always look at the judges sheet, and I've knocked over a cone and got no points off, ticked a jump and only got 3 points off, then on a really nice 180 pivot - forward, I didn't keep my feet "all the way" in the pie plate before going forward and lost 10 points. Go figure.

What I've noticed in AKC is that the judges in our area are scoring a lot tougher and are more in-line with what you will see in the traditional obedience ring. Definitely in the past AKC judges were just Q'ing everything, but the last couple of shows I've seen a marked difference, not just after April, but leading up to it too. IMO its a good thing.
Now, according to FB folks, in some areas they aren't even using the new signs and I've seen some videoed runs that Q'd that around here would totally not have Q'd, so I think there are some regional differences too.

AKC rules - I've bolded some parts.
I think part of the confusion is that in traditional obedience you have can only use verbal OR signal. Rally states you can do both - which in the traditional obedience world counts as a double command.
Quote:
Minor Deduction (1-2 points) for each of the following:
• Tight leash
• Dog interfering with handler
• Poor sits
• Slow, delay, or resistance to respond
• Touching or ticking a jump, pylon, post or person
• Out of position

Minor to Substantial Deduction (1-10 points) for each of the following:
• Repeat of a station—only one (1) retry of each station will be
allowed for all class levels. Repeat of a station is an automatic 3
point deduction.
Pylon/post knocked over on Figure Eight, Spiral and Serpentine
• Lack of control
• Lack of teamwork
• Lack of briskness
• Handler error*
• Loud command or intimidating signal
• Excessive barking
• Hitting the jump
• Patting/clapping in Excellent – per occurrence

Substantial Deduction (6-10 points) for each of the following:
• Incorrectly performed station** (Automatic 10 point deduction)
• Failure to complete the Sit Stay Exercise (IP)–No retries allowed
• Failure of dog to go over the jump in the proper direction (IP) – no
retries allowed
• Luring /pleading with the dog
• Lack of natural manner

Non-qualifying (NQ) scores shall be given for:• Minimum requirements not met
• Dog unmanageable or uncontrolled barking
• Consistently tight lead
• Dog that eliminates while in the ring for judging
• Handler error*
• Station not attempted by handler***
• Non-qualifying errors may not be re-tried
* Handler errors can be assessed from 1 to 10 points up to non-qualifying.
Handler errors can be assessed at any station or during movement
between stations on a course. Once a handler has stopped on any halt
exercise, the handler cannot move their feet to assist a dog without
incurring a handler error.
** Incorrectly Performed (IP) stations occur when a team attempts
a station and fails to perform the principal parts of the station on
the first attempt. The handler may choose to retry the station once,
for a correct performance, accepting the mandatory 3-point deduction
for the retry of the station. The station is considered an IP if the
handler chooses not to retry or fails to perform the station correctly
on the second attempt.
*** A station will be considered Not Attempted if: (refer to glossary)
• Handler completely passes the station without noticing the station
• Handler approaches sign but chooses not to do the exercise
• Handler approaches sign but does not begin the exercise
described on the sign
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  #12  
Old 05-14-2012, 12:44 PM
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elegy elegy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danefied View Post
With the new rules, yes, you can absolutely lose points for repeated commands. Depends on the judge and how tough they are, but the rules do state you can take points off for slow commands and repeated commands. What you do not get dinged for in rally (that you do get dinged for in regular obedience) is encouraging the dog.
For example. If I'm going through the spirals encouraging my dog with my voice (no fake luring, snapping or clapping) I'm fine. But if I halt and get a slow sit or have to ask for it more than once, you bet some judges will take anywhere from 1 to 10 points off. Just depends on the judge and how they interpret the rules - see below.
But losing points for a slow sit is not losing points for a double command.
Other than the bit about no pleading (which I think is hilarious), I do not see anywhere in the rules that it specifies that you are not allowed to give a second command.

Say I'm doing the halt/down/walk around sign. I tell my dog to stay and step off to circle around him. When I'm behind him, I can tell he's a little antsy, so I remind him quietly to stay. There is no hesitation, or delay in what the dog does. The exercise is performed entirely correctly. I see nowhere in the AKC rules that there would be any deduction under the new rules. In APDT it would be -3. Which I'd rather take instead of the NQ for breaking (though I think now you can redo the walk around exercises-- it used to be that you couldn't).
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  #13  
Old 05-14-2012, 02:50 PM
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Oh, I agree Elegy, the rules don't specifically state that, but what I'm seeing is that judges ARE taking points off for double commands and using things like handler error and "pleading" (which I too find hilarious) to justify the points off.

I doubt you'd see a judge take points off for a quiet "stay" like you describe - for one, in most of the venues I've been in, they'd have to be right on top of us to hear it (loud indoor venues), but also that would be hard to justify with something like "slow to respond". But things like "down, down, down" are most definitely getting penalized now in AKC which I think is a good thing!

Where I get annoyed is when the dog who downs the first time and is a little crooked is penalized and the dog who downs slowly after 3 cues but is straight is not penalized. So I'm definitely happy about judges being tougher and fairer.

Basically what I'm understanding to be going on in judges training is that they're wanting there to be less of a discrepancy between transitioning from Rally to regular obedience and they're trying to align the two more realistically.

TBH, I feel like if you can treat the dog in APDT, then the judging should be tougher. I haven't decided how I feel about the treats in the ring thing yet... I do know that a longer course would be the death of me - I can barely remember a course as it is, and sometimes I get so nervous in the ring that I literally cannot read the signs, I have to go off the "foot" memory of having walked the course!
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  #14  
Old 05-14-2012, 04:45 PM
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Shai Shai is offline
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Kind of a side note but since you are considering APDT rally just be aware that APDT the organization is selling it's Rally-O. Hard to say where it will all go in the future.
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Old 08-10-2012, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai View Post
Kind of a side note but since you are considering APDT rally just be aware that APDT the organization is selling it's Rally-O. Hard to say where it will all go in the future.
Note: movements on the APDT rally front. Word is USDAA won the bid and will own the future of APDT rally...if so this should be interesting to see! Could be very good but time will tell.
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  #16  
Old 08-11-2012, 10:57 AM
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We went to two classes before going into the ring the first time, and we were just fine; AKC, score of 91. The judge was really nice, though--there was a sign I'd never seen before, lol, and I had to ask her what it was during the walk-through and she showed me, which was super cool. I'm really enjoying rally so far.
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