The pyr shep discussion

[Laurelin]

Moving over here. I will reply in a minute.

[Laurelin]

Thanks for all that! That sounds very much like what I have heard from the other people I had talked to. The breeder I had looked at wanted me to come up to the nationals to meet some.

I'm definitely looking for something with more oomf (if that makes sense) than my shelties were. Although all of mine were lower key than some of the ones I knew from agility class. I'm still not sure a higher drive sheltie would even be enough dog for what I want for the next dog. The reason I asked was because at first they sounded like a ramped up sheltie temperament wise but the more I talk to people the more they sound quite a bit harder and active. Would you say they might be more like a belgian than any collie type?

I enjoy dogs that are relatively hyper. Although I tend to think of hyper as being more on the reactive side of things. For example, I say something that is exciting and Mia runs off like a rocket making a bunch of noise. I like that reaction versus a ho-hum kind of reaction (like Rose, she perks up a bit and then trots over versus Mia who is there in a noisy, speeding flash) Mia is great though energy wise now that she's over 2 years old. She can chill for a long time without being too hyperactive or destructive but still at the drop of a hat is ready to GO. She can be asleep and then I pick up a ball and throw it and she's after it as fast as she can. As a pup though she was very destructive and hyper and frantic. We were doing at least 2 hours off leash a day (many times much more) plus class 3x a week with her to keep her sane.

I really would love a bigger Mia that was a little more stranger tolerant (but still not fawning over them) and then just a touch more driven.

I am still very interested in them but also intimidated, haha. I think I need to experience a BC first and go meet some pyr sheps before jumping into it. They intrigue me a lot, but I'm not sure they're a breed I'd enjoy living with versus just working with.

[Aleron]

Good idea on the new thread! Should have thought of that before I posted the reply

Originally Posted by Laurelin

Thanks for all that! That sounds very much like what I have heard from the other people I had talked to. The breeder I had looked at wanted me to come up to the nationals to meet some.

I'm definitely looking for something with more oomf (if that makes sense) than my shelties were. Although all of mine were lower key than some of the ones I knew from agility class. I'm still not sure a higher drive sheltie would even be enough dog for what I want for the next dog. The reason I asked was because at first they sounded like a ramped up sheltie temperament wise but the more I talk to people the more they sound quite a bit harder and active. Would you say they might be more like a belgian than any collie type?

Yes very much so closer to a Belgian type dog than a Sheltie or Collie type. They aren't "just like" Belgians either but they do share some traits and tendencies, for better or worse! They definitely have more oomph! than any Shetlie I've ever been around, even the fast, drivey performance bred ones.

If you can get to a National, that would be great because you will see a lot of them in one place and have a chance to talk to many owners/breeders. But that does only help so much, since every dog is an individual and everyone's experiences and expectations are different. I heard so many different things talking to people IRL and on the internet who have the breed. Opinions ranged from "I'll never be without one!" to "they're too hyper to do anything with" to "I will never consider another one - ever!". There is a pretty big range of temperament types in the breed but that's true of any breed. Much of the difference in opinion has to do with the difference in individual dogs and individual owners.

I do think a lot of their ability to function around scary stuff and their reactions to strangers are socialization and training related. And like I said, everyone's idea of proper socialization is a bit different. I think sometimes people have an issue with "paranoid socialization" with dogs like PyrSheps (or Belgians for that matter). They know something is a potential issue in the breed so they become obsessive over every little thing the dog does, worrying that the dog is becoming fearful and what are they going to do to get the dog over it. Such an outlook very often leads to dogs with issues because the people involved are acting weird, which tells the dog that there's a good reason to be worried.

I'm not saying PyrSheps don't have genetic tendencies towards being fearful of odd things or distrustful of strangers or reactive. I'm saying that often the best way to work around such things in a young dog is to minimize the bad and maximize the good. Whimsy (Belgian) as a youngster was afraid of very overweight people. The first time she saw a person of that body type, she was 12 weeks old and they startled her. A lot of people would go out of their way trying to find very overweight people to feed and interact with the puppy after that. I just ignored it. When she noticed someone who fit that body type and looked at them oddly, I moved away and engaged her in play, tricks or work. It didn't take long before she learned on her own that such people were within the realm of normal and not really worth a second thought. With a lot of the more "complicated" herding breeds it seems maturity, experience, interaction with their owner and drive building count for count for a lot.

And I have to LOL that much of what you like in Mia are traits I see in PyrSheps too. Savvy never has a ho-hum attitude about anything They're also traits that make people who see Savvy at the grooming shop ask "ummm...what kind of dog is that?". Not because they want one but because they want to be sure to never get one

[Laurelin]

Sorry I forgot about this! I'm still really interested.

Oh and definitely PM me this:

I have a really interesting, long post from the PyrShep list about the differences in BCs vs. PyrSheps in herding and it's easy to see how these differences developed a different kind of dog. If you're interested, I can PM it to you

Originally Posted by Aleron

Good idea on the new thread! Should have thought of that before I posted the reply



Yes very much so closer to a Belgian type dog than a Sheltie or Collie type. They aren't "just like" Belgians either but they do share some traits and tendencies, for better or worse! They definitely have more oomph! than any Shetlie I've ever been around, even the fast, drivey performance bred ones.

That is good for what I want. I've only met a couple shelties that were in the realm of what I am looking for with my next dog and most are just a lot too calm for my tastes. Any of my shelties would have not worked for what I want in this next dog.

If you can get to a National, that would be great because you will see a lot of them in one place and have a chance to talk to many owners/breeders. But that does only help so much, since every dog is an individual and everyone's experiences and expectations are different. I heard so many different things talking to people IRL and on the internet who have the breed. Opinions ranged from "I'll never be without one!" to "they're too hyper to do anything with" to "I will never consider another one - ever!". There is a pretty big range of temperament types in the breed but that's true of any breed. Much of the difference in opinion has to do with the difference in individual dogs and individual owners.

I do think a lot of their ability to function around scary stuff and their reactions to strangers are socialization and training related. And like I said, everyone's idea of proper socialization is a bit different. I think sometimes people have an issue with "paranoid socialization" with dogs like PyrSheps (or Belgians for that matter). They know something is a potential issue in the breed so they become obsessive over every little thing the dog does, worrying that the dog is becoming fearful and what are they going to do to get the dog over it. Such an outlook very often leads to dogs with issues because the people involved are acting weird, which tells the dog that there's a good reason to be worried.

I'm not saying PyrSheps don't have genetic tendencies towards being fearful of odd things or distrustful of strangers or reactive. I'm saying that often the best way to work around such things in a young dog is to minimize the bad and maximize the good. Whimsy (Belgian) as a youngster was afraid of very overweight people. The first time she saw a person of that body type, she was 12 weeks old and they startled her. A lot of people would go out of their way trying to find very overweight people to feed and interact with the puppy after that. I just ignored it. When she noticed someone who fit that body type and looked at them oddly, I moved away and engaged her in play, tricks or work. It didn't take long before she learned on her own that such people were within the realm of normal and not really worth a second thought. With a lot of the more "complicated" herding breeds it seems maturity, experience, interaction with their owner and drive building count for count for a lot.

And I have to LOL that much of what you like in Mia are traits I see in PyrSheps too. Savvy never has a ho-hum attitude about anything They're also traits that make people who see Savvy at the grooming shop ask "ummm...what kind of dog is that?". Not because they want one but because they want to be sure to never get one

Thanks again! I really am wanting another very Mia-like dog. I find I need a dog like her and with the kind of energy she has. I am not sure what it is about it but the rest of my family thinks she's insane, and I love it. My past dogs do not compare and I'm worried my next dog won't have the same kind of energy that I enjoy. She is the most spastic papillon I've ever met.

I've already got socialization planned for future puppy. I think it will be similar with what I did with Mia although hopefully I will get said pup early. I think most of Mia's issues stem from the fact I didn't get her until she was 16 weeks and I missed out on the major socialization period. She still ended up very stable though around people that don't try to interact with her. People that do try to interact with her make her a bit afraid. It's something I can deal with though but would rather not in the next dog. However, I really do NOT want another Trey that cannot function around strangers because he's so spooky. Then again, we got him at a year old so who knows what we could have done with socialization.

I do work outside the home but I do not crate my dogs. I get up early to run Mia down and then she is kept in a pen with tons of toys and things to do. Future dogs would be too. The work and a high drive dog is my biggest concern to tell the truth but I figure most people work and keep dogs so I will make it work. I really think I'd be disappointed with an easier to live with dog.

I am sure I will have both a border collie and a pyr shep or something similar in the future. The question is which breed first! I've wanted both for a long time now and keep coming back to them over others, so I think that definitely means something.

Sorry this is all jumbled up lol.

What does Savvy think about water?

[Laurelin]

Are you showing Savvy or just doing sports with him?

[Laurelin]

Wow, I read this: http://www.lolabuland.com/2010/06/25/bc-vs-ps/ And this stuck out with me:

I think they’re all somewhat psycho and I love that, the weirdest the better. I love their love to run and work and play, but I miss the hyper part that only PyrSheps can provide me with, so I guess that makes me an addict. PyrSheps are not nearly that obsessed with running or playing, their only raison d’etre is: you (followed closely by food, of course). I don’t know a BC who wouldn’t run agility or play with any stranger who comes by and I hardly know a PyrShep who would run for anybody but their owner – at least not with the same eagerness. PyrSheps are one-person dogs, they breathe just for that lucky one, but they expect the same from their person. Teaching a BC to jump in your lap is often a long process of teaching them to trust you to jump into your lap and a PyrShep will jump in your lap at 8 weeks, just to give you a kiss.

I looove a dog like that. Mia will not work for anyone other than me. Period. That is one of my favorite traits about her is how much of a one person dog she is. Mia is exactly the same way

If you’re a PS person, you’ll like BCs too, it’s a nice change. If you’re a BC person, you’ll probably hate PS. Too hyper, too barky. And very addictive, as you can see in my case…

How fun would a pack consisting of a Mia papillon, a pyr shep, and a border collie be?

[manymuddypaws]

Having a dog who will only work for one person is different than having a dog who is untrusting, and afraid of people. Not all Pyr Sheps are fearful of course, but quite a few of them are. It requires constant maintenance and training- loads of socializing...forever. A Pyr Shep is a far cry from a dog who doesn't like someone. Their "one person love" goes deeper than that. He doesn't trust people in his circle. And it takes a long time to get in his circle. Finding someone to look after him if I go away is hard. I would never board him as the stress of that would crush him. Silvia wrote a post called Fear Sheps- I will go and see if I can find it. It is very good.

Pyr Sheps are fun though- super smart and quirky. I always call Boone my little muppet dog. He is adorable really- all fuzzy and cute and sweet. But is frustrating to work sometimes, and will always be a challenge. If you can get past that though- I do believe that the breed is a hidden gem- a dog that with the right breeding, temperament and upbringing could be spectacular at whatever it was asked.

[Laurelin]

I've read the fearshep article before and to be honest between that and some of the horror stories I heard is why I ended up backing out of the pyr shep pup years ago and ended up with Mia. It still makes me nervous that I'd end up with a dog that is extremely fearful. I've had that before in Trey (sheltie) and it was miserable. Mia's not stranger friendly but she's fine being in close proximity to dogs and people and good with ignoring them. That behavior is fine to me, but a dog that freaks out all the time over nothing is not.

Which is probably why I'll go with a border collie at least for now till I can see the pyr sheps in person.

[Shai]

I'm close enough to La Brise (which doesn't take being all that close) that there are PyrSheps at most if not all of my agility trials. They produce a lot of dogs. The ones I see are usually amped up about agility and seem comfortable in an agility environment BUT they are all owned by longtime agility folks and have likely been going to trial since they were pups...I can't say what they were like in the rest of the world, etc. But I do know at agility trials they are fine meeting other people though they'd generally prefer not to, and they in general turn into screaming blurs of hair when on the agility course. Not much of a review but there you go lol. There's one smooth I've seen locally, the rest are rough...I personally much, much prefer the smooth but they seem harder to get?

Anyway the point is I've never seen much of the "FearShep" thing. Distracted dogs, sometimes, but that's about it. But chances are if the dog was having major confidence issues he wouldn't be running competitively anyway, so maybe I just don't see those dogs.

[elegy]

There are a pair of PyrSheps in my rally class right now. They are barky but don't seem particularly fearful. The barking is the thing that holds me back-- my townhouse shares walls with people on both sides, and while everybody has been very dog-tolerant, I don't want to push that.